Story Framing & Forming – Ep. 207

“Tell a better story with your data” is everywhere—but most teams skip the hard part: agreeing on who the story is for and what decision it’s supposed to unlock.

In Ep. 207, the crew uses Brent Dykes’ story framing + story forming model to show what great report building looks like before the first visual: clarify the audience, pin down the key question, and design the narrative path to the “so what.”

News & Announcements

• Story Framing and Story Forming: Two Essential Steps that Precede Data Storytelling — The reading for this episode: a practical way to define audience, intent, and narrative flow before you start building visuals.

• Suggest a topic for Explicit Measures — Share an idea the crew should tackle next (including “we tried this and it went terribly”).

• Subscribe / episode archive — Catch up on past episodes and bookmark the full list.

• Argus PBI — Tools and resources from a friend of PowerBI.tips for people living in Power BI every day.

Main Discussion

The conversation starts by poking at two overused buzzwords: “insights” and “storytelling.” A KPI card isn’t an insight, and a page of visuals isn’t automatically a story. The difference is whether the report is designed to move an audience from question → understanding → action.

Brent Dykes’ framework splits that work into two pre-visual steps:

• Story framing: define the audience, their stakes, and the boundaries of the problem (what matters, what doesn’t, and what “good” looks like).
• Story forming: shape the narrative path—what you’ll establish first, what tension or contrast you’ll reveal, and how you’ll land the recommendation.

Takeaways to apply right away:

• Start with the audience’s decision, then work backward to the minimum evidence needed.
• Write a one-sentence “so what” (what should change if the data is true?) and keep it visible while you build.
• Treat “insight” as explainable + repeatable: something you can act on again, not just a surprising number.
• Use framing to cut scope ruthlessly; if a visual doesn’t serve the narrative, it’s clutter.
• Build a simple story spine (setup → turning point → resolution) before you open the formatting pane.
• Test the flow by narrating it out loud in 60 seconds. If it doesn’t make sense verbally, it won’t make sense on a page.
• End with a clear next step: a decision, a hypothesis to test, or a follow-up question—not “here are the numbers.”

Looking Forward

A little upfront framing and forming turns “pretty visuals” into a decision-ready narrative stakeholders can actually trust and act on.

Episode Transcript

0:02 [Music] foreign good morning welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike hello everyone good morning morning good morning Mike how are you

0:32 good morning Mike how are you good morning I’m gonna get guessing how cool would it be and how freaky would it be if I got Greg’s secret word well as soon as how you said it like four seconds into the podcast when Greg is never here freaky freaky [Laughter] excellent excellent so jumping into another topic today this is a pre-recorded message episode this is a recorded mess message

1:04 episode this is a recorded mess message good morning good morning rise and shine it’s 7 30. welcome new day on Thursday I think we would definitely lean more towards like the morning radio our types of radio might be slightly different the only thing I can think about morning radio is Bob and Brian in the morning they had their like crazy intro whatever they do

1:35 whatever they do anyways 30 years or whatever that would be fun exercise we say our personalities based on our morning radio shows how many episodes do we have if we did this for 30 years I’d be a lot of episodes but I still have a lot more wrinkles that’s for sure that’s true I can’t say I’d have less hair but I don’t know about you guys laughs laughs I think it would be early by by default did you sleep no we might have the podcast start at 5 30 in the morning right

2:06 right exactly exactly oh yeah yeah all right let’s jump into a topic for today our topic for today is an article from Brian Dykes Brent Brent sorry I read the wrong thing rent Dykes my apologies Brent and it’s talking about story Framing and story forming two essential steps that precede the data storytelling which I think is really interesting so a good article there’s gonna be a lot of good things to talk about I highlighted a couple of things that I think resonate

2:36 a couple of things that I think resonate with me throughout the article I feel like this is a buzzword I feel like a lot of people talk about we need to we need to improve your storytelling or in improve your your data literacy or insights you see in this article he talks a lot about insightful information and I thought he did a good job defining what that meant or the most egregious example is people saying look at my storytelling and they just show a normal report really it’s just a report

3:06 it’s just a report and I think he did it I think the the thing that resonated with me when we started initially talking about I talk a lot about insights when I build reports trying to find the specific wording here that he used insights most organizations have an abundance of data and information but insights are more elusive I thought that was pretty well worded there they’re a little bit more difficult to come by not just straight throw a table on the page and call it an Insight well I think insights too is the one of the words that would go on the back of our t-shirt

3:37 that would go on the back of our t-shirt because I think if we were to have this podcast t-shirt where we have Game Changer and whatever our other buzzwords are I think on the back of the T-shirt would be all the words that we despise like compose oh yeah composable yeah I think most composable yeah trigger trigger word trigger word and I think insights is one of them because it’s thrown it is thrown around way too much almost just as much the storytelling where do people really know what that means and if the question would be for Microsoft like deliver insights for your

4:08 Microsoft like deliver insights for your business like okay let’s break that down so let’s talk about oh go ahead okay I so let’s talk about oh go ahead okay he mean he he takes a a an example of somebody who said said that there isn’t that insights mean an unexpected shift in the way we see things okay that’s what I was that’s the the other phrase that hit me pretty well in the articles I highlighted that one yeah what do you think about that well but that is

4:39 think about that well but that is unexpected is different than the definition of the word for my understanding because an Insight is the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or a thing thing it doesn’t necessarily mean that it has to be unexpected I agree with that one is it so like I I’m not yes I I I’m I’m I don’t necessarily disagree because it’s challenging me in using the word insights however in the example that he

5:11 insights however in the example that he provides later on in the article where it’s there’s a 200 percent increase in sales and nobody understands why why if nobody understands why there’s 200 increase in sales and you’re going to go do analysis and figure out just because you you have an indicator you don’t like having the understanding of or the explanation of why something happened Pro provides what to the business if it’s not an Insight it’s just an explanation

5:42 not an Insight it’s just an explanation the way he said like it’s oh yeah we we know so like we had an indicator so now therefore it’s just a matter of an explanation like what’s the difference between that and an Insight something as I analyze the data I find a marker or an indicator that allows me to find an additional explanation for why that’s happening happening how is that not just an explanation for what I’ve found in my analysis sure one may be easier than the other

6:12 may be easier than the other yeah I would lean towards his explanation more or the definition because to me like using Insight is something that can be repeatable like if if sales or marketing is up 200 percent the reasons why could be more than one but the main reason is something that we can reuse because we know this is being successful this has caused this yes you can say it’s an explanation but to me it’s something that’s like yeah and we can continue to do this in other campaigns sending emails out at 6am is

6:44 campaigns sending emails out at 6am is much better than sending them out at 8 AM to me that’s an Insight that’s some variable some behavior that marketing should continue to do and that’s that to me is like the name of the game if you could undercover that I think we’re jumping ahead sure I think we’re jumping ahead a little bit but I I would also agree with your summarization of insight Seth I think think I think it doesn’t have to be like a shocking new revelation that’s occurring inside your data I think it could be something around I I do feel like before

7:15 something around I I do feel like before you start doing analysis and finding insights you need to have a good grasp of the audience needs their interests and their key questions because I think those things form what becomes insightful to that audience and I definitely think there’s multiple there’s a concept of here like it kind there’s a concept of here like it alludes to a little bit is know your of alludes to a little bit is know your audience because the information you’re going to provide them they care about certain things that they’re interested in so you’re crafting the report into that

7:45 into that a story that that team can resonate with yes you’re I would say you’re mixing some of the concepts that that he’s like if by team you mean so let’s let’s back up let’s back back away that’s all messed up I I am because we’re not providing the context for the listeners of like Hey we’re talking about data story and pretty and then we dive directly into insights in like like halfway through the article what’s this point number one his point number one is toy framing framing the data so key

8:16 toy framing framing the data so key insights can be more easily found it can be the point I guess I I wanted to make was was I I thought I was going to go off the rails immediately in in the the article because in in the very top like he he starts to describe what he means by storytelling or the overuse of Storytelling and then story his his three-part approach is essentially story framing story forming and storytelling

8:47 framing story forming and storytelling and at first my my assumption was he was talking about like oh generating this process and this is what it is for every report I was like like you’ve read like Alberto Cairo he’s got a great book called the truthful art where he’s he’s a journalist and and he analyzes data and and like was talking about the type of visualization where you are you are walking somebody through a

9:17 are you are walking somebody through a story right but but he he quickly dispelled all of that for me in his first first first section here which was great because it it I I do resonate and I think he said one of his paragraphs I’m trying to find it where he was just like yeah I’ve I’ve I’ve never believed dashboards tell stories tell data stories and I’m like okay great like now we’re on the same page so like I think where he started to lean was lean was or where he does is what we can do as bi

9:49 or where he does is what we can do as bi Professionals in developing reporting is create create a story frames like these these areas of focus for the business to say okay Mike to your point and I think we should talk about it is like understanding what the business objectives are and then giving the box that best suits them to play and and do analysis in that area to start to uncover explanations and potentially insights if

10:21 explanations and potentially insights if I frame I agree and I also think we’re using I think we’re what we’re trying to do here with visuals and Report pages and data information is we’re trying to convey we’re communicating to other people with those graphical images and so we have to both look at the the same image and be able to come to some similar result or similar outcome the visual itself becomes an aggregate

10:52 the visual itself becomes an aggregate form of the information and helps you get to get to and in the article we talked about the root cause I think that resonated very well with me side question in here because I I agree with almost everything he’s saying in in the article and while we generate reports like while we put data together we frame it right the the idea is to provide what we would say the insights to to the business

11:23 business do you do you think the vast majority or like what is the percentage of data folks that are aren’t doing much other than just consolidating data oh what I’m saying right there yeah yeah frame that question another way like well I well I can I can I ask the question on how I hear it go ahead and then see tell me if you think it makes more sense what are the numbers how many people are in the data space that are purely looking at historical reporting or just

11:53 looking at historical reporting or just bringing data together to show you what historically happened I would say how many people are claiming to do stories well that’s all they’re doing and is that your question Seth is kind that your question Seth is is that what you’re where of is that what you’re where you’re at yeah I agree I agree with that a lot a lot I guess and the reason as as I read through this article and we’re talking about it this idea is elicited what if if we were doing more collectively

12:23 if we were doing more collectively other than just consolidating data what topics of conversation would always be happening and so that’s a this is a really great point because when you really think about the term storytelling which would also go on the back of our t-shirts on the the no-go list is the data is constantly changing this is I’ve argued this forever I’m glad that Brent said this in a much better way but when we’re dealing with our Dash one’s

12:53 when we’re dealing with our Dash one’s reports the data is changing so if you were trying to tell the story that hey numbers are up 20 well over time that can decrease that’s like telling the story of the big bad wolf and he’s late on one of the stories one of the times where this the actual plot changes not saying we’re manipulating the data but when you tell a story with data you’re highlighting areas in a specifics at a time that like hey the campaign did well because of x y and z well the next year that numbers can be

13:24 well the next year that numbers can be those numbers can be drastically different which then tells a different story and our point of telling a story is a specific set of time to help the user guide them through those specific data points that we’ve highlighted reports do not do that a report cannot do that when it’s refreshed daily over time and then we set and forget so I I agree with you but like a well-trained politician you completely avoided answering my question okay save

13:54 avoided answering my question okay save the question again well trust me another one thing I am not okay I’ll answer your question I do think you’re right thank you to your questions I think many people don’t understand what storytelling actually is and I think it starts talking with like it’s like with a problem statement you have some data to support your hypothesis and then there’s like an outcome a result a root cause the sales were up 200 percent because we launched this new product and the

14:24 we launched this new product and the majority of the new sales were up in that area and I think this is this is part of what I went through when I went through the the Delta Associates training which which would which did a lot of like okay you have a lot of data where is the largest impact of your information coming from do people really know know what has what in what is changing and where what is drawing on the most impactful or which part of your data has moved the most what’s driving the root cause of the change of 200 Sales right

14:54 cause of the change of 200 Sales right we don’t ask those questions and I think that’s more of the storytelling but I don’t I don’t think many people are thinking that way when they’re building reports and therefore they get stuck in this I’m just gonna throw a bunch of charts at you or tables and things and then here you go here’s a bunch of information it’s up to you to go find your own information we’re not really telling leading people to where you want them to go yeah I think let me let me re-ask my question because it’s so at first I thought it was almost a parking lot because you do make a good point and and

15:24 because you do make a good point and and I think we come back to it a little bit but okay or I come back to it a little bit sure you guys may be already past me which is entirely possible so when I’m when I’m talking about consolidation of data versus I I guess the the thought here is consolidating data and just presenting it versus actually creating a valuable frame right because where I’m going with that question of what conversations should we be having or be very well known across

15:58 be having or be very well known across the data Community which I don’t think they are they are are the questions like are the is the communication between us as technical data resources in the business how do I understand what frame to provide or the context by which somebody’s going to analyze data if we don’t have that locked down and we and we don’t I don’t think so I yeah I I think

16:28 don’t I don’t think so I yeah I I think I understand your question now and we’ll see but I think that this is one of the this is to me honestly we’ve talked about this before one of the cons of power bi is that you’re not necessarily stat ever static reports and this is Turn and Burn I rather than with Excel where it’s like remember like we talked about in a previous podcast my reports back in the day were PowerPoints that had a report on 10 a. m that I delivered the insights or highlight to users they

17:00 the insights or highlight to users they did not have a dashboard to look at Power bi is now created this way where we call this self-service which I think in turn has changed people’s expectations of what bi does back in the day people would ask me to say like why did this campaign do well those questions do not exist or did not exist when I was back the corporate role of power bi is we need to see the data a certain way or I need to see these things over time when power bi was not a thing when and it was all these 10

17:31 not a thing when and it was all these 10 a. m meetings that we had to do it was tell us why where we should spend our budget what do you find in the data that’s the right question to be asked that’s the story and I think also two people who did not grow up or grow up up did not start from the point yeah but aside from the framework of telling stories with data where they start with power bi and data models if they don’t have that skill if they didn’t do something like Delta or they didn’t have that experience they don’t

18:01 didn’t have that experience they don’t know how to actually ask that story and I so I think it’s the the two-part two-part organizations don’t expect the bi team to deliver those types of insights they expect them to put a dashboard together and model data they’re not asking them where should we spend money or who are our best sales associates or what products should we invest in so so that I think is the Crux of my question right what you just asked what you just said was they expect the bi team to throw a bunch of visuals on a

18:31 team to throw a bunch of visuals on a page and how do we know we’re throwing the right visuals on the page if you’re not engaged there’s no questions right now the question we’re not asking the right question I keep thinking to myself we’re not asking the right questions I’m just saying in general like if if I’m going to look at the technical community as a whole I I would I would say are they locked into the right technical languages yeah Dax and M like there’s a massive amount of data out there right from how do you operate how do you build visual like all of the

19:02 how do you build visual like all of the technical pieces got it in spades but if I’m going to compare that wealth of knowledge up against how do you how do you create like very usable targeted framed data sets for people to use one well I would say how do you as a bi team ensure that those reports that allow for explanation Discovery and insights for a particular business area

19:32 business area how do you ensure your spot on how do how do you ensure that you are covering the objective of the organization that requires a lot of an like back and forth with the business or a a process by which you extract that information from the business to provide value to them and I don’t think we talk about that enough enough I think the business doesn’t have the Trust In us anymore to do that to have that leadership role no well I disagree with the other side of that coin where I don’t think so would I what I think you

20:03 don’t think so would I what I think you have is an expectation all of a sudden is that even if I provide with you with the appropriate data sets and we’re talking about this where we spend our professional careers doing this this you’re handing the keys to a particular business person who just cares about solving their problem they they don’t like I would argue on that end like do they have the analysis experience do they know how to frame their own day do they know what they’re looking for which is where complete self-service I think

20:35 is where complete self-service I think never takes off the way people think it does because you don’t have people that know how to use the tools I agree but I’m gonna I’m gonna push back a bit here because I’m gonna push but but in a honestly in a genuine way here we’ve talked about trying to interview people power bi has made a lot of bi analysts who maybe shouldn’t be bi analysts so you’re the right out of college who do not have the experience in the analysis role or the intelligence role or people who are good with in a sense modeling

21:06 who are good with in a sense modeling but don’t have that other seal the soft skills and I think that this is very prevalent I’m not saying this is everyone but we’ve seen this a lot I think in a lot of organizations that’s cause those people are not asking the right questions they’re not coming in with the experience of the intelligence they’re just really good at Power bi but they do not have any of those other skills I think that make a bi team or an organization for successful and I think there’s lowered the expectation of

21:37 think there’s lowered the expectation of what bi should be doing I think I think it had I I go to and when I hear you saying I agree with you to some degree let me say that again I agree I agree I’ll take that there’s not some degree of agreement here I either agree or I don’t agree so I I agree with what you’re saying where I would go with is where my mind walks to is how do you solve the problem what what does what does a healthy reporting insightful story framing culture in your business

22:09 story framing culture in your business look like so at the end of the day we’re gonna have to move a direction here and I feel like when I’m framing in my mind based on what you guys have been talking about is in general we need just regular education around data insightful things actionable reporting right if we I think if we communicate more on those levels and that’s something I think I use fairly hopefully well fairly frequently when we’re talking to people about building a report okay what

22:40 people about building a report okay what what keeps you up at night right what is bothering you when you leave the end of the day when you look at this report and walk away what do you want to go do do you want to spend more money on marketing do you want to change the plan do you want like tell me what the actionable things are that you need to go accomplish from there we walk our way back okay so because of this here’s some ways we would want to represent the data to help you understand right okay we need to under identify what are our goals what is the sales this year versus last

23:11 what is the sales this year versus last year does that align with your expectation of those goals what do you need to do now to do that do we need to do some projection right do we need to do an estimate moving forward of where we think we will go based on our past Trend like those are the things that I think if you start alluding to more of the the explanatory realm of information and data now people start thinking in that mindset and I think to your point Tommy people were just not even thinking about asking the right questions and that’s where yeah and that’s what

23:43 and that’s where yeah and that’s what I’m that’s what I’m pushing at yeah right I agree I I believe that we don’t like you we talk about it a lot but as a community I don’t think we do and I think it does need to be part of adoption it does need to be part of engaging and telling people how to work with data for the screen that they understand how to eke out those insights because it’s not so straightforward if anything like straightforward is you learning a Dax function right and I guess the because if we look at the

24:13 guess the because if we look at the Corpus of our experience right we can engaging with the business to understand the objectives is a very cliche phrase of course oh yeah we’re going to talk with them and they they should know their objectives I guarantee you that is not the case right when people are building things in general in the business it’s because somebody else is asking them to do it right and how I can’t tell you like within my own

24:43 can’t tell you like within my own organization with it previously when Contracting Consulting Etc the busy work is what happens during the day and too often folks are just caught up in the day-to-day whereas we have to be strategic about spending time in these areas that take time to put data sets together to solve problems that the problems we’re solving align to the objectives of the organization and not some dude who’s

25:14 organization and not some dude who’s just Rogue needs to know something because the prioritization of that stuff does does not get what it should on a regular basis and Tommy you even talked about this before where it was I think you you had multiple occasions where you’ve spent a long time on a report and it was like for one guy yeah because it was like oops well we shouldn’t probably shouldn’t have spent all that time because it didn’t align to a corporate objective because it also allows people to say no and I think like I said as much as we

25:46 and I think like I said as much as we obviously love power bi I think the the false story has been the more you learn Dax and power query the better you’ll be at Power bi which is to me is almost a false statement and I know that sounds like a hot take but what I’m trying to say is those are means to an end and I think a lot of people just think the learning the Dax the learning the modeling is the the end goal that’s not the end goal correct and I know it’s a tool to get to the evil those are all methods those are all methods to get to the end goal and again and I I just

26:18 the end goal and again and I I just think there is a I don’t want to say a lack like there’s a there’s a pandemic or epidemic of of people not knowing how to frame a story but I think a lot of times that gets lost in the conversation with power bi is the more you learn the tool the better you’ll be as a business intelligence professional which I think is I I would say it’s honestly a false statement if you’re just because the ability to have that empathy which we’ve said so many times and an ability to say

26:48 said so many times and an ability to say well what are we really trying to do here Mike to your point like what keeps you up at night how do we calibrate yes what’s important to you and and I think is the mo that’s where you have to start Seth back to your first question if the organization’s not asking us the right questions too we’re there and what are they asking us to help them understand why a campaign did well or are they just saying show me campaign data that is a says seismic shift in what we’re going to do

27:18 to do in terms of what the the framework is what our work is going to be if they say why is this campaign doing what it’s doing and where should we spend money are they saying just spit out the data on a dashboard that’s going to really adjust what we’re going to be working on and how we’re collaborating with the business business our goal to me if and if you’re stuck in that just spit out the data is to help shift that conversation where they start asking those questions to us on why what

27:50 asking those questions to us on why what campaigns are doing well and why yeah so why not spend money later and maybe that’s the distinction that I’m just not picking up from Brent right and the where the explanation is it is a simple answer right right like it’s just a straightforward process of we we have this major indicator that’s very apparent everybody knows it we just need to know where it’s coming from versus our a higher level

28:22 coming from versus our a higher level objective for the sales organization or like where yeah we need to reach a certain goal how do we get there right which is a harder thing to understand because you would have to analyze the current like what what your current sales are how many you what your current sales are how many like who your top performers are know like who your top performers are like all of the different metrics of the how do I get to this point

28:52 how do I get to this point and set Direction provide like I guess Insight could almost be termed as like the the value add back to the business right where you’re you’re setting a path that’s an unknown quantity or based on the analysis that that you’re doing you’ve you’ve figured out how to go do that and that’s why you would story tell right and maybe the distinction is it’s not like if you were gonna say

29:24 it’s not like if you were gonna say sales are up to 100 percent you’re not going to spend time telling the story of why sales are up to 100 outside of the fact that marketing did a big big promotion initiative you don’t have to convince people of anything oh great well that makes sense that was the goal that’s why we did the promotion as opposed to where I think he leads which is there are cases where you storytell and if you think about this that makes a lot of sense because because as we do our jobs regardless of whether or not it’s reporting

29:55 or not it’s reporting Mike may not agree with this but consolidating your thoughts and most people do this in PowerPoint right to convey in simple terms not only like what the problem was how you’re going to solve it and how it’s going to be executed people are visual right and sometimes like building that story within those decks is why I think it’s become so popular but you can also mess it up but that’s

30:26 but you can also mess it up but that’s where I think in general like that makes a lot of sense to me because the Insight that you got was through like 50 different steps right it took a long time and you have to bring people along for the ride so that they understand like why it is you’re recommending what you are so so I will agree with you Steph 100 on the idea of framing out that story and that’s a lot of what I like to work with clients I just don’t use the medium of PowerPoint to do it in so it’s it’s this

30:57 PowerPoint to do it in so it’s it’s this this idea of like wire framing out a report wireframing what your questions are and then saying let’s just write down what we think we need to do and what are I think when you were talking there I made a note that said goals and expectations of the business are important it’s important to write down what those goals and objectives are and if I go even further with that saying if I think about the Departments that I’ve interacted with again there are always exceptions to the rule but of the Departments I’ve worked with there are certain departments that have that seem to have more clear

31:28 to have more clear expectations written down and known versus other departments right I the ones that I’ve interacted with finance department one is done one than six in my head that is very clear on a lot of their objectives because they’re looking at like Financial numbers right we expect someone says we expect a five or ten percent growth year over year that is the metric we’re walking towards we all know where we’re marching towards and then it’s all matter of why are we not getting there or how are we getting there that those become the main

31:58 there that those become the main questions the drivers of the insightful information moving forward I also wrote the word expectations but I I did take it a little bit differently expectations Great Expectations yes yes well let’s go back to PowerPoint if I had a PowerPoint with six slides and six visuals and people and I didn’t know what was going on in any of them they would walk me out the door like thank you for your time here but this is your last day if I could not explain what’s on those visuals and I think with power bi and at least with with the type of

32:30 bi and at least with with the type of reporting this new wave we’re in in terms of bi where you have all these pages and visuals but we’re not really explaining it anymore like back in the day before we had this new wave of business intelligence any visual that I showed to someone I had to explain and walk them through that doesn’t occur anymore I may like briefly talk but I’m not telling them why that like something’s trending up or down do you have to no and I don’t think people are expected so I would ask I would ask

33:03 so I would ask I would ask while I agree with you in certain cases where where you information buttons are like describing what’s going on is definitely needed or a path to do that isn’t it potentially that like because reporting has become so prolific in the business that the data literacy of people has come to a point where they don’t need that anymore I would take it the other way I would say it’s because of the technology making it so easy to create reports and

33:33 making it so easy to create reports and create visuals that there’s more visuals than probably necessary and now we’re to me it goes back to the churning and burning of reports rather than the data literacy maturity’s gone up [Music] [Music] okay so okay so so anyways I I I just to frame this a bit more if I had to put together a PowerPoint with six visuals they had to be in a particular order they had to really tell a story and I again I had I had to speak to each of them

34:04 had to speak to each of them verbally verbally I don’t think we that has not been really a skill that’s been learned in I think with a lot of the new tools out there with the how visuals can be so prevalent now is it visuals being so prevalent or is it like you understanding the business behind yeah that’s a that’s not a bad point because

34:34 yeah yeah yeah yeah one of the things I do like do like he so story Framing and then he starts talking about story forming and one of these Concepts that I didn’t and why I love reading these articles is because people clarify things for me stick new things in my head when I talk about data analysis like to me it was a catch-all catch-all term right we we’re we’re compiling our data I do my data analysis and then I produce my insights but the the linchpin in here for me was analysis and interpretation

35:06 analysis and interpretation and to me that explains a lot of what I would have assumed were breakdowns in people’s thought processes but I think it’s a combination like the interpretation part part comes from understanding the business and thereby creating meaning in the data sets that you’re looking at right so as you’re analyzing different data it’s the interpretation I think that’s the most important aspect of that that I just

35:36 important aspect of that that I just lumped into analysis and also the breakdown of where would say even even some of my co-workers right like it’s they analyze data well but why is it that I’m able to answer all of these other questions or come to come to things faster it’s because my interpretation is better I have a better understanding of the business and how it operates and what are the different reasons in which why we’re using this data in certain ways

36:06 we’re using this data in certain ways and because of that my analysis is just the same as them they’re looking in the same places they’re compiling the data in the same way I just know how to interpret the data that I’m looking at and that was to me a very interesting call out which I didn’t really think about and I like his his two graphs that essentially say that this combination of analysis interpretation either happened sequentially where you’re doing the analysis and then

36:37 you’re doing the analysis and then you’re interpreting the data and understanding what it’s telling you or it’s interwoven and I find more often in my work in in generating data sets or reports or whatever anything data related that the interwoven one is definitely more the the tack that happens with me right like I find a little nugget like oh that’s interesting that would lead me to believe right XYZ and I think we talk about this maybe in problem solving right because it’s hypothesis no yes no yes no right yes

37:09 hypothesis no yes no yes no right yes you’re analyzing yep you believe it’s something and you’re interpreting the data in a certain way you have a guess and either it’s confirmed or you have to figure out a different solution for it scientific method right there that’s exactly what it is and so that that actually brings me to the middle part of the article when we start talking about discovering insights and forming interpretations that will eventually become the narrative and I liked where he where he took this one because halfway down it talked about like do you use like an a sequential approach

37:39 do you use like an a sequential approach do you just do a bunch of analysis and then do interpreting the analysis and what I liked is his diagram here he actually shows he felt like the the analyze and interpreting actually happens in more of an iterative process and I think that’s how I like to do it as well I would agree like I would do a little bit of analysis get to a point where I’m like that’s interesting okay there’s another question I have let’s ask a little bit more okay that’s interesting as well and then later on in the diagram and I thought this other example here was very well articulated it talked about on basically two sides

38:11 it talked about on basically two sides of a page on the left hand side you have the data analysis doing the information gathering and then on the right hand side you have the interpretation of that information and how do you again this is where the story I think starts becoming formed like for example you find that there’s a 200 increase in sales one month okay the answer is why and then you do some exploring the data you find oh look we had some something happened in this week of this month so you’re starting you’re starting to narrow down okay some

38:42 starting to narrow down okay some something occurred on it’s it’s a time there’s a Time based portion to why this number is substantially higher okay now next question find which product drove the state the uptick in sales okay conclusion something in this particular product again you’re getting a little closer to the answer okay this day this week this product there was a substantial increase in sales compared to other products of the same nature okay great let’s go to the next one were there did we do any marketing or promotional things that could have

39:13 promotional things that could have driven that up more no okay we didn’t so there was no promotional marketing something else must have occurred and then his final Insight here was okay this product’s main competitor just hit up a recall well therefore everyone else is looking for a different product to fill their need therefore you’re getting an advantage over your competitors so now you’re gaining market share okay let’s cap so to me this is a great story now now large increase in sales competitors product had a failure we’re now looking at our products and saying how can we

39:43 at our products and saying how can we increase the sales on our product and drive it even higher with a marketing campaign additional spend whatever that looks like to accelerate that that advantage that you have over a competitor and and this is where I think Simon sinek does a really good job of like talking about business where he says business is like an evolutionary scale you don’t win at business it’s a continual game on a Continuum that always is being played so it’s like a never-ending game that you’re always strategically positioning yourself

40:13 strategically positioning yourself somewhere else between your business and other business and what is your advantage now you may have an advantage today but you maybe get taken away in the future so you’re always playing this game of chess That Never Ends essentially and I like this approach I think it explains to me very well in my mind this relates to how I like to build things and Brett does it really his book effective data storytelling does a great job of that on if you are dealing with power bi and you’re trying to think of how do I take someone’s problem and then in a sense translate that to a report yes and it talks about the okay

40:45 yes and it talks about the okay filtering Group by and all those things that we’re trying to do whenever you put a bar chart together you’re grouping by that but why and yeah this to me honestly this this further goes into something I have been getting I want to say more confidence in or be more suggestive with clients where we’re creating risque risque yeah sure more risque more aggressive okay more no not that more confident of of

41:16 more no not that more confident of of creating new measures or calibrating new metrics for them and really going through like okay even though this is not like let’s say even your corporate goal what you’re trying to do what I’m hearing you say is X Y and Z that’s what’s important to you yes this dashboard is not helping you in the slightest it’s teasing that out because again I think this is the disconnect right yes what’s important to you is not necessarily always represented on the report page and so T like I think that’s the point of the business analyst or these Bas is teasing out okay

41:46 these Bas is teasing out okay what’s really important to you right again to your point like yeah ask the question what keeps you up at night you question what keeps you up at night what what makes you want to take know what what makes you want to take action what do you what do you see and what would then and drive you to do something right and and I think that is some a skill and also part of the story here where we can also help develop a new story because they I think a lot of times people think I just need to see our email sender our email campaign you our email sender our email campaign how many emails people did open know how many emails people did open it’s like well is that success and let’s

42:16 it’s like well is that success and let’s really talk about that it’s like actually you who are concerned about spend and revenue let’s try to trade something at least we can monitor right now and then adjust I think we bi professionals need to be a little more more let’s say confidence saying we can adjust the report or we can adjust the metrics but let’s try to monitor something right now and see where we go from that I like your statement there I feel like I get a real world pushback of

42:48 pushback of I would like to I would like to have that conversation but I feel like there’s times when I get the I just need the data it’s and but that’s this like I don’t know what’s going on in my own business I just need the data just give me the table and I’m like I feel like we’re cut we’re selling ourselves short by not again this is where I go back to the education piece right going back and educating people like okay hey everyone anyone who’s working on our bit like

43:19 anyone who’s working on our bit like there should be like there should be a set list of materials that you need to read before you do anything I think anything from Alberto Ferraro Herrera Carrero Alberto Carrio should be like one of those things right data storytelling and what we’re talking about here should be another thing right I think there should be regular material where you’re almost producing like a study buddy group inside your company and saying we’re going to review these Concepts from people who are already been doing this let’s incorporate this into our culture we’re going to let we’re gonna need to wash us over people until we start really asking questions

43:50 until we start really asking questions and I think until you start doing that you start challenging the status quo now people understand like again you don’t know you don’t know this is just this is just purely injecting new information into people’s business daily routines that’ll help them come out with a more formed question and Mike I agree that is a lot of organizations where there’s just some of the data but I will put I’m going to push back where just because that’s their behavior doesn’t mean you can’t

44:21 their behavior doesn’t mean you can’t adjust that behavior and I and I think that’s where a real true value is is we can nudge people’s behavior over time when we start showing value or we start saying hey yeah you just want to see the data but we’re going to do this other exercise if you want your report we’re going to go through this exercise and I think you can do that over time if you have that support people will see the value I agree yeah but it’s it’s the support part right and yeah it’s true good luck I’ll just say it’s it’s not it’s not saying like I

44:52 it’s it’s not it’s not saying like I don’t agree with you but I would say like to me this this conversation’s a little bit at different too and I’ll make make my my final comment here I I think I think we’re gonna be much more effective in what I’m hearing you say is yes understanding objectives and creating the right frame for reporting for the people to analyze is something we talk about and I think what you’re pushing which I agree with what’s striking to me in the analysis interpretation here is a

45:24 interpretation here is a different thing that at least it’s hitting me different in that it almost this is a different conversation it’s a different set of questions than understanding the frame what it is is leaning more into an unknown the unknown area based on the data findings based on our analysis and interpretation it means this is this is coming full circle with maybe how Brent is delineated between explanation and insight for me where the

45:55 explanation and insight for me where the explanation is it’s 200 increase what happened interpreting something unusual happened on our weekly sales great what was it we we a product X sales went up oh awesome and it’s left there I think I think yeah organizations or people leave it there and maybe the push that I’m getting out of this is hey and and that’s another why pick this up as a speaker right is

46:25 why pick this up as a speaker right is your engagement is to ask all these questions drive for the objectives create a valuable report that report does what it’s supposed to do identifies in a descriptive manner what’s happening where the sales are and then there’s this whole other ecosystem or a whole other add-on where it’s like great now that we know that what are the ideas or what are the questions we can drive in to do further analysis so your teams need to go and do one two three four like keep driving

46:55 one two three four like keep driving into this question to see whether or not like why did the product like why did the product sales go up who’s doing like you need to reach out to your like competitors do competitive analysis like figure out like is this an area that you can exploit in the business like and it’s an add-on I think because this back and forth to drive more towards insights and if insights are those key things that are drivers for a business which we flippantly talk about and this is where

47:26 flippantly talk about and this is where I get where I think he’s going all the way through here is those are the hard nuggets but those are the big ones that shift business or allow them to make decisions and in this case if your competitor just had a major recall and you have product you could take over the market share if you if you like oh my goodness like we need to go run marketing campaigns we need to you run marketing campaigns we need to Slaughter our competitor we need to know Slaughter our competitor we need to do all these things and oh easy there wow wow hey man I’m messing around you

47:57 wow wow hey man I’m messing around you are not you are not playing around yeah yeah so so as we wind down here I think this is a good topic I really like the article I think there’s a lot of good things here I definitely it definitely tweaked a lot of my thoughts around story Framing and story forming and then ultimately into the storytelling mode here and I think it has opened my eyes a bit more to what storytelling could potentially mean and how do you really maybe effectively build storytelling

48:28 maybe effectively build storytelling so so with that we are now at our what does chat GPT say segment so we’ve asked the question of chat GPT how do you become a successful data storyteller so there’s again like chat TBT has been recently giving us here a lot of bulleted lists here here’s here’s a six point list of things you can do so first on the list would be understand your audience I would agree with that before you start telling your data story it is important to understand your audience and what they’re interested in knowing this will help you craft a story that is

48:59 this will help you craft a story that is relevant and engaging to that audience makes sense the next one here would be choose the right visualizations visualizations is key to data storytelling choose the right type that conveys your message I’d agree with that one use storytelling techniques just like a good story your data story should have a clear beginning middle and end storytelling techniques like suspense foreshadowing and resolution make your data story more engaging now that’s pureed like I think storytelling in general I’m not necessarily sure I resonate very well with that one maybe

49:30 resonate very well with that one maybe there’s some aspects there number four focus on the story not the data it’s important to remember the data is just a tool to help you tell the story don’t be bogged down in the details the data Focus rather on the story you’re trying to tell and use the data to support the story I like this one practice practice data storytelling is a skill that takes place takes sorry data storytelling is a skill that takes practice to master keep practicing your data storytelling skills and seek feedback to improve your

50:00 and seek feedback to improve your techniques I think that’s good because I think that’s that’s a really good like payer programming peer review process and then lastly also pushes for for for presentation being part of it’s a good point your yeah you’re pushing people to learn new skills yeah agreed stay current with technology and Trends Technologies are ever evolving data stories in the data storytelling field stay current with technology Trends tools and techniques and best practice to ensure that your reports are fresh and engaging

50:31 reports are fresh and engaging I thought that was a pretty fair estimate I thought that was pretty relevant there I like the practicing part I think that was an aspect of you you just don’t know how to do it automatically and I think that’s also part here too that’s where I was going with the data culture piece like we need more time to invest in this I’ll give it a four out of seven it’s it’s above the average but I don’t know if there’s an unexpected shift in the way I understand things so I I agree with Tommy I give it a 4. 2 yeah I’ll give it two lemons and an orange yeah that sounds good I’m not

51:01 orange yeah that sounds good I’m not okay so if we’re ranking on one to seven I would I’ll probably give it like a a five I’ll probably go to Five I liked it a bit more I think there’s a better answer that it gave oh man we’re not doing out of 10. well Tommy doesn’t like tennis one of my other one of my other ratings in the podcast didn’t make sense then because I never will adjust it though we just we just changed I think Tommy just changed it right now you had your own decision to make yes Tommy said four out of seven so he basically he told us the scale that he was working on yeah I would be with you

51:35 that’s why I said I’ll give it three bananas and an orange like hahaha hahaha excellent well thank you all very much for your time we appreciate you hanging out with us for an hour ish talking about things in this new article we appreciate it the article is in the Linked In the description below of the videos so you can go check out that article thank you all very much our only ask is if you like this content if you found this book engaging or had other thoughts around this topic we’d love to hear from you so share it on social media let us know what you’re thinking about this topic and we’d love to hear

52:05 about this topic and we’d love to hear back from you your thoughts and let someone else know you found some value from this podcast Tommy where else can you find the podcast you can subscribe on Apple and Spotify and if you’re on one of those two platforms as Mike said give it five bananas it helps us out a ton heck yes if you want to join the conversation live or join the community we have a great chat a lot of people that join every Tuesday and Thursdays 7 30 a. m Central follow power bi dot tips or power bi tips on all the social channels you go find us there sounds good thank you all very much and we’ll see you next time

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