Communication as Crucial for BI – Ep. 331

In this episode of Explicit Measures, we dig into the key takeaways and what they mean for Power BI practitioners.

News & Announcements

• Introducing New Branching Capabilities in Fabric Git Integration | Microsoft Fabric Blog | Microsoft Fabric — We’re excited to announce the introduction of new branching capabilities in Fabric Git integration, making it even easier to use! Fabric Git integration is a vital component of the Fabric CI/CD toolkit,…
• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.
• Power BI Theme Generator — Create and download Power BI report themes using the PowerBI.tips theme generator.

Main Discussion

The main theme here is that communication is a core BI skill, not a “soft” extra. Tools and DAX won’t rescue a project if stakeholders don’t agree on definitions, priorities, and what success looks like.

Key points:

• BI work is translation: turning business questions into metrics, visuals, and data rules people can align on.
• Reduce rework by using prototypes and examples early (show the shape of the report, not just requirements documents).
• Set expectations on what changes are cheap vs. expensive (model changes late in the cycle are rarely “quick tweaks”).
• Document definitions and decisions so the organization doesn’t re-litigate the same metrics every month.
• Strong communication makes governance and DevOps easier—because everyone understands why the process exists.

Looking Forward

A simple next step is to add a lightweight “definition + decision log” to your BI workflow (even a shared page). It forces alignment early and makes future iterations faster and less political.

Episode Transcript

0:32 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning good morning and and ay Tuesday gentlemen jumping in man I love love [Music] [Music] that you should after like 330 times I love it still love it actually like double that because it’s like we hear it in the beginning and at the end so doesn’t like bass in the morning get their morning started morning’s good we had we we’ve only had two intros right this is the second iteration of

1:03 right this is the second iteration of our intro our intro music oh you are correct one we had one originally that I did something else with and I think I said I need to find some better uncopyrighted music and then I switched it really quickly or I bought a license to something or something those lines anyways I don’t know if I don’t know if we can change it now I don’t know if this is I don’t know this is it though what’s our main topic today main topic for today let’s talk about that so the main topic for today before we get into the news articles

1:33 before we get into the news articles is let’s talk about bi and communication so business intelligence and what happens is how critical is communication inside that business intelligence team what does that look like so that’ll be our main topic for today but before the topic let’s hit some news Tommy you’ve got some news articles for us yeah fabber continues to come out with P or blog after blog today I’m really really to see how this is going to work but the fabric blog introducing new

2:04 but the fabric blog introducing new branching capabilities in the fabric and get inter integration some of the main features here you can actually create a new workspace from a branch so rather than the management of okay what workspace I already have available together there’s a related Branch section so if I want to actually access related workspace sharing the same repository I can actually see that in fabric now on powerbi which it’s awesome and yeah so really for me the

2:36 awesome and yeah so really for me the ability to create new workspaces from a feature branch and the related Branch feature is something that’s I think very needed the creation ability Now is really there that’s needed I’m intrigued about the management side but what are got what’s your thoughts so this diagram I don’t think has been out for this diagram that you’re showing you in the blog post here has not like been a new article it’s talking about how I think Microsoft is expecting you to build these things I think I think this is finally Microsoft catching up with some of their code

3:07 catching up with some of their code to match their their information around this so you have the deployment Pipeline with Dev test prod the development environment lives on top of some branch and typically the dev workspace team is the main branch that’s how Microsoft described it the main branch of your code lives in that Dev is linked to that developer development environment for those of you who have used skip before in the past you make these things called branches you take a copy of what’s inside a certain Branch

3:40 copy of what’s inside a certain Branch main typically and you go make some changes you make a a copy of that basically you make a branch do your changes and then you pull or push commit your changes back into that main branch and then do a pull request make sure every when reviews it and or everyone’s happy and we’re good to go so I think this is a really good pattern from a code development standpoint it just hasn’t really quite worked out yet inside fabric yet I think this is Microsoft providing some more automation to make this easier for for people to go build their own branches of things make

4:11 build their own branches of things make the changes they want and then push them back into that developer Branch this does not talk at anyway about moving code between Dev test and prod this is focusing on like one workspace that’s sitting on Main so that’s how I see it yeah I think it’s good I still don’t think we have the right story all the way there I I think there’s some weird there’s still room for improvement age this previous episode there’s two main thoughts I have and I think Mike you mentioned one the one I’m really loving git and if I can

4:43 one I’m really loving git and if I can understand git and use it in my own workflows not just with fabric but other things I’m building I I think anyone can so if you’re still intimidated by git and you’re listening to this just start working on your own repositories private repositories it doesn’t have to be in fabric just yeah maybe it’s some Powershell maybe some python I I’m loving the story that we’re getting to but Mike the point that I think you just made before we jumped on is really important how’s the data moving between this because I get the code moving

5:13 this because I get the code moving between this but we’re dealing with some a complete different entity here besides just code we’re dealing with the data moving here so it’s really that whole conversation between deployment pipelines data and nowget yeah so that’s my that’s my my one about what we’re seeing here is this is doing a good job of moving the infrastructure it’s doing a good job of moving the code that builds the data but we really don’t have a clear story of what data doing so when you create one of these branching things you’ll have

5:43 of these branching things you’ll have the infrastructure you’ll have the code you’ll have no data so where in this process do I have a Reload fresh data go get the information go hydrate your Lake yeah in some situations your Lake get really big and large you’re not going to want to refresh the whole thing you just want to keep a little small window of it so this is this is a story that I think is it’s very relevant in the developer space Dev is sample data not real information typically it’s representative of what is real later on

6:14 representative of what is real later on test typically has a sample of production data and maybe like a month or two of it and then production has like everything so like that’s how I see the the like the data changing as it goes through these different environments I don’t know we’ll see if that actually pans out and if you would like to listen about where we think the current implementation is you can go check out our last episode where we talked about this for quite some time true statement I want to move on and

6:45 true statement I want to move on and talk about one of not only my favorite MVPs but one of the guys I I met up with this last year MVP Su Daniel Marsh Patrick oh yeah caught a Reddit post from him this morning where he has released and I put the blog yeah in the chat here for you to disseminate but he has theb 1. 7 available for beta testing so it’s really important for if you haven’t heard of denb go check it out it’s a phenomenal visualization

7:15 out it’s a phenomenal visualization tool they don’t get metrics but they’re part of appsource but they don’t get a lot of metrics on how people are using the visualization so whenever they do a new release Daniel’s outlining not only what are the new new things dark mode is one of those it’s pretty cool but the new releases of things but they’re extra careful about ensuring that the changes to the program don’t mess up anything that’s already been in use because it’s

7:46 that’s already been in use because it’s like a three to five week process to get any new code changes through this app Source thing so go check out the article if you have if you’re not familiar with the Deb get familiar and if you can do some testing and help out Mr Danny Marsh Patrick before they push the latest version into the Microsoft ecosystem I think he would appreciate that very much and I I know you’re saying the word they in this commentary here but I’m going to be very clear this visual is amazing and

8:17 be very clear this visual is amazing and Daniel is the sole builder of this entire Visual and I would argue I’m actually hearing people stay say things now like hey if you can’t do it with standard visuals the next best thing you could do is go get denb and then custom visuals on top of it yes you’re right because but it’s hard because Daniel says we he always does say we but I think maybe that’s just being him being nice and say it’s him I want to give him yeah I have all this stuff I need I

8:50 him yeah I have all this stuff I need I need you to so I want to just give him a lot of credit for this because this is a lot of work it’s an immense amount of time that he’s been doing and spending and building this one and I think he’s he’s pretty much a solo show it’s been him building it developing it architecting it all the code everything he’s written there there’s a lot that he’s been doing and it’s just on his shoulder maybe it’s him and a couple of kiwis I don’t know so I guess if you like kiwis well this is not a New Zealand thing it’s a it’s a good fruit maybe some grap fruit too you’re joking

9:21 maybe some grap fruit too you’re joking right no I’m joking J okay oh I didn’t know if this was one of those like just dead pan you don’t know but anyway that that’s your style Seth it is it is I was a little thrown off there I didn’t I didn’t quite know how to was that true sarcasm yes I love it that that that’s ironic because form one of my employees started giving back my sarcasm like pointing it back at me were you able to interpret it oh at first I was like are you oh my brilliant

9:55 first I was like are you oh my brilliant yes very good and just ever since then she’s she’s just dead pan sarcasm all the time I love it love it amazing you want if you want to get a job with Seth just oh no yeah who would ever want a job with Seth yeah that was the sarcasm right there old real for real for real oh amazing awesome hey thanks par guy for testing some part aome DB 1. 7 let us know your

10:26 aome DB 1. 7 let us know your feedback in the chat there if there’s anything that you that that stood out to you that you really enjoy of the new feature upgrades yeah it’s it’s an impressive upgrade there’s a lot of things moving and changing in there so huge huge Improvement awesome with that any other an announcements or news items we should talk about well Tommy’s Tommy’s poking the bear this morning and he in in the last episode I had eluded to the fact that I was extremely frustrated and Tommy wants a rant this

10:58 frustrated and Tommy wants a rant this morning I I think I think it’s a good opener I I think it’s a good opener very very curious yeah let me do one thing before we roll into this one because I think I think communication onbi is going to be a very good topic I do want to point out one last thing that I was just checking the blog on Kim Manis has has yet again done it again she’s been leading the the powerbi helm for a lot of the bi things and I think she said for 17 years for the 17th consecutive year micos Microsoft has now been positioned as a leader in the 2024

11:30 been positioned as a leader in the 2024 Gartner magic quadrant way off the chart like nobody’s even close to them anymore we’re we’re getting the distance seems to be continually increasing as they score Microsoft higher and higher on the leader and Visionary squares of that space so their their ability to execute has been increasing their vision and fullness and completeness of the of the platform is continually out clipping everyone else and you see Salesforce drifting further and further

12:00 drifting further and further away from that main data point I’m going to read that I’m going to dive into that because this is going to this is going to incorporate fabric for the first time I think so into into Gartner’s own evaluation you have to I evaluation you have to the fact that they’re bringing all mean the fact that they’re bringing all of the Azure based things they’ve already been there but now it’s it4 it goes from February to February no well yeah but I’m just saying like just just just because it’d be worth d into it does it

12:30 because it’d be worth d into it does it because powerbi yes it’s part of fabric but it’s not like fabric is powerbi right like you’re bringing a lot of things to it but if we’re talking about business intelligence or reporting tools maybe maybe it’s one in the same Tomy find out for me the blog and I’m seeing a lot of fabric words okay I’ll find out for well of course you will it’s Microsoft it’s on the Microsoft figure out figure out which figure out which Gartner thing they’re they’re locked into is it just the the the reporting visualization and like that or is it

13:00 visualization and like that or is it fabric included I’ll come on Thursday with my synopsis sweet thank you just ask chat jpt by the end of this me this meeting you have the guy it’s getting boring winning the Gartner quadron all the time may be true awesome all right with that all the news is done let’s get into our main topic today Communication in bi you want to hear my rant oh sorry wasn’t that the same thing no oh okay other rant sorry go okay so let’s just say for some

13:32 go okay so let’s just say for some reason Seth had to go dive into an an area of the business that is not really well known in in upgrading okay I had to go figure out like how the ETL was working in in this area of the business okay and oh my gosh I I was thrown back to the stone ages guys like 15 years ago in ssis and visual studio where I had like download all this Stu like I had to download the ETL tool

14:02 like I had to download the ETL tool which wasn’t really the ETL tool download Java make sure I had the right version create a bunch of specific folders on a C drive if I didn’t get the folders right then nothing would open create system variables on my machine download this configure that wrong version guess this version guess that version and I had the full write up of how to do this from one of my developers and it still took me a day just to get into screens just to get into screens that I could see the ETL

14:35 into screens that I could see the ETL flow which was only partial because the configurations for all the things were in a completely different tool set or files that I had to open in visual studio just to see so I’m clicking through four different things just to see what’s happening with data it was the most frustrating experience oh my goodness I’ve had in a long time and then this morning as I’m building the thought behind this rant I sit here and I’m I’m trying to

15:05 rant I sit here and I’m I’m trying to figure out why I’m so upset and it’s because conversely I’ve been working in the cloud in Microsoft Azure for a very long time and do how easy it is to spool up services and get things done click click click and then I was like click click click even further to the conversations of what does fabric do for us I’ll tell you what it does it alleviates me from spending an entire day of wasted time because literally all

15:35 day of wasted time because literally all I’m trying to do is get things to the point where I can go look at fix something and understand how it works and or edit it I don’t I’m not even to the edit part man like I haven’t even I don’t even know what that TR good luck because it’s probably some through some like obscure way I’ve got to like deploy it through this or do something and I’m just like what I like this new fabric ecosystem I like it what it makes so much more sense that I can connect to a data source I can configure

16:06 connect to a data source I can configure it I can secure it I can automatically start sucking the data in and if Mike you want to bring me along you can say hey Seth I’m going to give you permission to this workspace you can go to this thing go look at the pipe see what it’s doing and like we can fix it and you can you can know exactly what’s going on it is so obtuse dealing with yeah and and it just it threw me me back to the days of like still where we were in Microsoft products ssis Visual Studio tabular models visual versions of Visual Studio

16:38 models visual versions of Visual Studio the tabular model like how it all interjected you didn’t like it wasn’t part of Visual Studio to download it y whatever and then my final thought is this if this if individuals are creating unique oneoff conglomerations of tools that only you conglomerations of tools that only how to use you are building a weak know how to use you are building a weak point and a risk high risk in your business stop doing it stop you’re you’re it’s not a special thing if you

17:10 you’re it’s not a special thing if you can’t easily bring somebody else into the ecosystem and your process and how you do things then what you’re building is not the right thing keep it simple it it it should not be as difficult as where I’ve been in the last days and granted some of this is Discovery some of it you don’t know right but overall my gosh dudes my my dudes well the just the idea of configuration of loan wasted time it’s into syst variables for collaborative tool here’s the thing when

17:40 collaborative tool here’s the thing when you get that sales pitch from that company about that tool they sell you the bill of all this bill of things that were really hot and new and and and again my guess is Seth your experience with this is this is a tool that was around before we had all the fabric elements of things right so this like before powerbi yeah it’s yeah so I’m reading a little bit of the tea leaves here thinking the reason we went down this route is at the time there was nothing that was equivalent or lower cost enough so I

18:12 equivalent or lower cost enough so I feel like one of these things that I find is absolutely could be one of these like Hey we’re going to do this as cheaply as possible we’re going to just yeah here’s the software it’s it’s going to be but I think to your point though there is now a hidden cost that was unrealized 10 years ago or whatever the the time was when this thing implemented like yeah there is now so much more Challenge and and risk and to your point someone gets a promotion someone moves on that that tribal knowledge gone and

18:42 on that that tribal knowledge gone and you even have the instructions in front of you and yet it still took I hope for for this sake here I hope you’re documenting what you did differently and at least do a little mini retro on your work you spent a day doing all this work spent an hour just making sure that like okay this was wrong had to do this this need to be fixed like just least put your thoughts down because I guarantee you one day you’re going to be like three days three months from now your computer’s gonna be like crash and you’re GNA be like crap I have to still thing all over again nope I have a new

19:12 thing all over again nope I have a new Mission I have accelerated I have accelerated my timelines to get off it like uhuh true no more nope this is what Alex po fast as possible Alex was saying this to me recently and he was talking a lot about we can now do things in days that used to take us months this is where this is where my final thought was like yeah this is why right at least one of them right where yeah anyway

19:42 one of them right where yeah anyway learning curve too right because think of what think of powerbi even eight years ago what I could do from an ETL with power query I just can just start running with it or even Jupiter notebooks I don’t have to do any configuration just get started with a Jupiter notebook which was not the case before so the learning curve and the barrier to entry just to be familiar with the ETL process with powerbi is gone so if I’m looking at the Gartner magic quadrant here Seth where does this

20:12 magic quadrant here Seth where does this company fall on the quadrant I was thinking the same thing are they even on there nich players at the very unability to not even on there they’re in the recycle bin recycle bin no because it it’s a and I want to look at say name straight it’s a straight you should say their name it’s not it’s just a straight ETL tool okay so it’s it’s not going to be in the bi space that’s a different magic quad we look at awesome well I I think this is a very relevant

20:42 think this is a very relevant conversation and I I I want to make a a final Point here before we move on to the next thing I think there is a hidden cost to this bit of work that’s very hard to quantify your time Seth at the

20:54 hard to quantify your time Seth at the level you are in your organization is extremely valuable and the amount of time it took for you to even get the thing to start to learn what the process was that was that was a lot of money the company spent for you to go through that process would it have been easier for them just to say look our people are valuable we are going to buy tools we’re going to transition to tools that are easier for people to understand and use there’s less installing this is a trend I think that’s continually happening it’s going to everything is going the

21:25 it’s going to everything is going the web is becoming incredibly powerful the programs are getting super super imp impressive at this point I think we’re getting to a point right now where we’re going to continually seeing this investment into this browser based stuff and I got to be honest there’s not much left in desktop that I really love working with anymore most of the things I enjoy I enjoy working all right that’s that’s a little now we’re going too far you were walking the right path and you took one step past yeah let’s let’s dial it back now I do agree with you line yeah I do agree

21:57 do agree with you line yeah I do agree with you from the standpoint that like this is also an another nugget of how do you get to the Cloud why do you get to the Cloud why do you get to these services and this would be hey we have we have some pretty like there’s there’s risk involved in bringing new people on because ramp up the ramp not risk but it’s like the ramp up time takes longer y just figuring out the 20 step process to do something as opposed to two right like the simplification of things and pushing it to the thing

22:27 things and pushing it to the thing things that matter versus don’t matter and I think that’s where all of this is going so if you’re not adopting that you’re going to do things slower right and I think this is a perfect example of like it takes you much longer to do things in some of these older I would argue Antiquated and whatever tools that served a purpose at a time versus when you have not not necessarily people that are on the bleeding edge they call it bleeding for a reason because you got to figure a bunch of things out but even in the services of

22:58 things out but even in the services of all the Azure ecosystem like how simple it is to just keep pushing and like doing what you need to do in a much shorter time anyway I’m gonna buy m a Chromebook because apparently that’s all he he needs honestly at this point we’re not too far away from just Michael throwing away all his PCS I was talking with one of my developers the other day and he was like if I had to do it all over again I would not have asked to buy a laptop a Windows PC laptop for my work computer I would have asked for a nice Mac he said the only reason the only

23:30 Mac he said the only reason the only reason he needs to have a PC is harbi desktop will not run on a Mac that’s the only and I’m to be perfectly honest I’m 100% with them I feel I feel that pain I’m like yeah the desktop is what’s keeping me on PC I’m I’m not anle guy I’m not a Mac I know Seth even has the whole non-apple iPhone so I don’t even know what it is just it’s just not an apple one so Seth keeps sending me Pur Seth keeps sending

24:01 keeps sending me Pur Seth keeps sending me green bubbles and text messages I hatte it with the prog get with the program blue bubbles on please blue or gold I’ll see you guys later good talk all right we’re out good talk today good luck Rand the podcast on yourself by yourself hopefully Tommy Tommy’s camera doesn’t turn off because then it’ll be Mike talking the entire time by himself that’s a Mac software for you that’s a Mac for Mac for you oh that’s funny awesome all right main topic today all right we’re ready for the main topic I think we’ve we’ve gotten all the rants out that was

24:31 we’ve gotten all the rants out that was a really good rant all the way Seth I I appreciate the rant you’re welcome I think how many other people are going to have similar feelings about your rant let’s jump into our main topic today let’s let’s jump into what is effective communication in a bi business intelligence team so Tommy you want to kick us off of some ideas here and maybe start the conversation going and we’ll we’ll kind conversation going and we’ll we’ll I’m sure we’ll find many B bunny of I’m sure we’ll find many B bunny trails and rabbit Trails on this one and I ‘s good reason for that so let’s jump right into it we we have a lot of hard

25:02 right into it we we have a lot of hard topics the hard skills we’re talking about git we’re talking about system variables and that need just to be in a sense techsavvy and data Savvy and all the products but let’s not all the savvies but let’s not forget about the soft skills and how invaluable the ability to communicate not just data but work with different teams work with clients on effective story storytelling an effective communication on projects datab based

25:32 communication on projects datab based projects on what your reports are actually showing and trying to have a communication and a dialogue with your stakeholders around business intelligence this is something to me if you were to look at all the soft skills in business intelligence I would probably rank this as the number one needed soft skill and again there’s a few others here but just focusing on the areas of communication I think this is where we’re talking about Mike there’s a lot of rabbit holes that we can get into yeah but I’m just going to start there

26:03 yeah but I’m just going to start there on let’s not forget with all that you have to know with fabric and all the jupyter pythons and pyb and data flows and pipelines you still have to be able to talk to your stakeholders and to non-technical Savvy people in a way that they understand it and also interpret what they need let me give you just a very piece of anecdotical data points that go along with this exact point here I have purchased U Melissa coat’s class around data and governance deployment

26:33 around data and governance deployment patterns so this is the this is the powerbi adoption road map she wrote a lot of the original articles this class goes deeper into those patterns and usage and all the other things that relate to powerbi and and the distribution of content through powerbi anecdotally most I I took the class was one really big class I broke it into like three sections focus on people focus on process focus on technology the technology part was really like here’s the technology pieces you should be aware of hey there’s integration with

27:04 be aware of hey there’s integration with purview there’s integration with a data catalog these other things that are kind catalog these other things that are integrated here’s how you of integrated here’s how you can do the Microsoft 365 labeling and apply that to your ARB reports there’s things in there that you can talk about security what does that look like the other two sections of classes when I broke it apart the most purchased section are focus on people and focus on process it’s a lot less around focus on technology and I think that’s because it’s very easy for you to figure out how

27:34 it’s very easy for you to figure out how to click the buttons in the technology because that’s a very well documented from Microsoft what’s not very well documented or where there’s not a lot of training being generated is how do I work well with my business to communicate with them to get the process that I need and and the people in the right room to have the right conversation to get stuff done and so maybe maybe this is a a missing area currently currently inside the training space the things that come from Microsoft that they’ve been doing a lot more with adoption

28:05 been doing a lot more with adoption road map and the there’s another one called I want to call the integration but there’s another one implementation planning but there’s some very specific things that Microsoft is talking to but I feel like there’s a lot of opportunity here that also go along with this this topic as well anyways I just kind to throw that out there yeah well it’ll be interesting to see where we go I think u a lot of my my points are are higher level because we’ve we’ve done podcasts in the in the past where we’ve specifically walked through like what are the type of questions you want

28:35 what are the type of questions you want to yeah ask while you’re building a report Etc I guess the only the the only point I’d make in that direction is one of one of the largest things I think that is important for communication when you’re engaging with the business is listening it’s not it’s not talking part of communication is listening so it’s that EMP empathy where you’re listening and you understand the need the use case

29:05 and you understand the need the use case and the outcome of like how the individual is going to be using what you’re going to go build the absolute worst thing you can do when you’re in that interactive space of talking with business people and you’re Building Solutions for them is treat it like a developer where you’re just like give me the requirements here’s what you asked for like that’s that that works if you’ve got other teams doing all of that other stuff for you it doesn’t it doesn’t work

29:36 stuff for you it doesn’t it doesn’t work well when you’re the person that has to engage with that end user so it’s interesting you say that because I I took it not I don’t say slightly different because I completely agree with the listening side but I hedged onto a few areas is the audience but really what are the elements that we have to communicate and and both to your point listening and talking like what are the areas that business intelligence really has to be solid on that or Savvy and as I

30:07 solid on that or Savvy and as I was going through this I was thinking of okay it’s obviously Gathering requirements like I think that’s the easy one or sharing or communicating a report those are the obvious ones but to me I I also took it in in a few other areas of there’s also the consistent communication on Project based items working talking to stakeholder and what I wrote down was sharing the value or selling the value of what your team or what business intelligence is doing it’s

30:37 what business intelligence is doing it’s not less on the micro conversations that you may have on here’s a dashboard I’m going to communicate the dashboard or what’s your requirements for the report but there’s so many other projects that we’re doing or we have a report and how do you actually communicate the value of that given project or entity and to me that’s where I’m again again hit so to speak hitching my wagon yeah I think I’m going to lean into the the the the elements part right when you’re engaging like if you want to

31:07 when you’re engaging like if you want to a little bit I think what in that interaction with with business try to avoid talking technical right like it’s a rare business user that like they may

31:19 business user that like they may understand their area very well but they probably don’t understand a lot of the data elements that you do like so when you start talking about ETL and tax and modeling and M and where you can do different things like right the intimidation Factor comes in there and and then like you’re putting up a barrier on their side because they don’t want to they don’t want to sound stupid to you right like because they you’re not so speak their language right don’t don’t talk too technical and and in there get

31:50 technical and and in there get agreement on the meanings of data right in your mind it’s transformation you’re transforming this you’re grouping you’re aggregating you’re calculating you’re doing things but what does it mean to them because they’re throwing business logic at you which is extremely important to know so you have the right outcomes but the Transformations and like what it is that they want to see is typically probably going to be in like well when I’m looking at this visual I want to I want to see this by this and this and this and this should only this should exclude this area and this is you

32:22 should exclude this area and this is you should exclude this area and this is so it’s all in business speak and know so it’s all in business speak and you have to disseminate what that means from an implementation standpoint and then aligning on the expectations of what the outcome is right because it’s all on the front end typically it’s a it’s a it’s a blessing when you’re engaging with somebody who knows more about data itself as opposed to just the business area that they’re they’re engaged in and then you have like those are really easy conversations but that’s not the majority of the time so like from an element’s perspective of

32:52 from an element’s perspective of building something I would Point those out and then really lean into Tommy what you’re talking about which is I I think when you’re developing Solutions especially the ones that are impactful or could be impactful make sure that those projects are communicated through out the business unit or the organization and that’s where you get into like not just an announcement but hey go check out this thing and and like useful things

33:24 this thing and and like useful things that we’ve talked about like add a page where what’s the business case like what who’s this for what’s the value they’re going to get so the context of that is in the report or some other area that they can digest and then compare like the report that they’re seen to the value behind it right so communicating that out there caveat in parenthesis after testing yeah and can I focus on what you said the first part because for me my skills in communicating expedent

33:56 skills in communicating expedent increased when I thought when I began to think of myself as a translator right and your first area of speak their language that’s also translating our words that we use in our lingo for them right and I think that’s such a huge part here because if you can’t do that it’s gonna be very hard to communicate the value I used to talk Smart in these coms like well we connect to data and we we have our semantic models and yeah you lose them but the ability to translate not just what they’re saying

34:27 translate not just what they’re saying but what what we need to do like Hey we’re going to mash up your data or you we’re going to mash up your data or or we’re well we need to know or we’re well we need to get your information like those are words I’m actually using rather than combine and transform like well we need to find where the information is even just like almost some in some particular instances avoiding the word data at all cost even though that’s what we do because that’s not how they’re thinking so like thinking of yourself or when I began to think of myself as a translator both sides I’m going to translate what I need to say but I need to trans what

34:58 need to say but I need to trans what they need to say for what I need to do they became more comfortable especially with stakeholders especially with people who are not techsavvy or again don’t know the platforms like where it’s like well we we’re going to visualize your information we want to show what’s important to you I know what that means what that means from a bi point of view but they also do too without that you can’t communicate the value it’s almost impossible and this is the hardest I think thing for us to do because we think technical that’s why in the

35:28 the space I want to I want to keep pick out a couple points here that Donald is putting out in the chat which I think is actually really well and I like I like Donald he’s like on my he’s like our our online chat GPT for Kimble he read the entire book of Kimble I I’ve seen I’ve seen screenshots and images from from Donald so Donald thank you very much for reading the Kimel Kimble book because you’re keep pulling out very good quotes and things in here that I it resonates very well with me so let me let me I’m going to stand on the shoulders of giants here Donald and Kimble ultimately here and and

36:00 Kimble ultimately here and and pick out some phrases that they’re saying here is Kimble says don’t ask the business what they want ask them what they do how do when you’re doing a good job that is a great probing question that’s just not like what columns do you want what formatting do you want like that’s a way better deeper conversation around help me understand what you’re doing and a question that I use a lot of the time is show me show me what you do with this data can you can

36:31 what you do with this data can you can you just show me the process of like what happens I know that you need the table so again I keep talking this term of like you need access to data and then you need information about the data typically people are looking for access to data is what I find and if you start getting deeper questions into what is the information or the insights of the data that you really care about they’re taking an extract they’re moving it over to some other tool or even pulling it out of parbi to put back and de parb again on their own doing some

37:01 de parb again on their own doing some analysis and then there’s an output that is okay now that I’ve aggregated added merged whatever here’s the numbers or numbers I’m looking for in this information and so I really just that resonates just very well for me and then Donald also quotes another great Giant in the world here great giant so giant so great such a big giant that’s a very sarcastic comment here so if he also quotes if you if this thing isn’t saving you money or if it’s not making you money

37:31 money or if it’s not making you money why are we doing it yeah I think the the access versus insights access to data right is is interesting because more often than not and it it dub Tails into this conversation of like not understand like people know their business but they don’t know data so the reason access to data is such a familiar request is because we say so they can play with it but it’s it’s actually so they can Find meaning right like by looking at the data they know the business and then

38:02 data they know the business and then they can start to add filters and extract and aggregate a little bit and that’s why like we’ve talked about in the past like it’s a great place to start with just doing some data dumps and pagate it get them the data get access to the data then make sure you’re following up for the insights right because what happens what happens after that they’re going to start their own manual process of compiling their report or thing and it’s going to be all manual and depending on how involved it is that’s where you find efficiencies when

38:33 that’s where you find efficiencies when you can drive towards the insights and just deliver them the output that they’re expecting or the output that they need and they don’t know they need so there’s like an evolution to this but the the way I was thinking through it was that wording I’ve found was really poignant when I I was asking business people like okay so so what’s your process what’s your process to com like put this like give me these this current report and they would struggle to do that some

39:04 would struggle to do that some of them would do really well but the vast majority would be like oh well I’m this is what I do I’m in this tab and then I do this and I’m in Excel and you start working on it and then all of a sudden you get to this point where like well I I don’t understand where this data came oh that comes from like four other files right and it wasn’t like I walked away from the process to just say walk me through how how you walk me through this this whole thing that you do to get to the end end result right

39:36 do to get to the end end result right like put it in the context of their job their day-to-day the effort that it takes like if we could streamline some things if like what are what are areas that take a really long time for you to put this all together that that thing drives towards the the you listening and and there’s this like calculation calculator that’s going on in the back of the head like yep efficiency oh yep I can save 20 minutes there oh yep that’s just a connection oh yep that’s just

40:07 just a connection oh yep that’s just this and and that’s what you don’t articulate right but that’s part of the solution building that you’re doing while you’re engaging and talking and because let’s not forget people are not the end goal is not just to look at data it’s really an they’re trying to get an emotional response because that’s really any data if you don’t believe me if your bank account was divided by half it’s going to trigger an emotional response and for me when I started asking the question which like from my big life bul what it’s instead of hey what are your metrics or what are your

40:37 what are your metrics or what are your KPS I was like what keeps you up at night all of a sudden people become so much more comfortable going oh my gosh well we’re looking at this we’re looking at that because you’re speaking their language I I’m going through the elements part here and I was thinking about where are the core elements that we need to be the most effective and I want to see if you guys want to add to this or agree with this the four core areas where we need to communicate well it’s Discovery okay right it’s that and I

41:07 Discovery okay right it’s that and I think that we’re we’re really hard focusing on that like tell me your process we’re just getting introduced to something it’s sharing content so we’ve built the report or the solution and we’re now sharing the value it’s project stat status so something a little larger like we’re doing some integration we need to tell stakeholders or the people we’re working with where we are what we need and the last element that I I wrote down was when we need requirements or not from a Discovery Point of View like where the business is lacking something

41:39 where the business is lacking something where we need a tool we need a resource we need another person involved in order

41:43 we need another person involved in order for this to work so those are the four elements would you add to that would you want to focus on one of those okay so I I one other thing I think I would add in here is I think there’s a trust issue potentially that I’ve observed sometimes sometimes certain organiz ations have such a tight clamp down on centralized data and nobody has access to it there’s this little bit distrust from the data culture that I don’t understand like this is also a track record is there a process is there a way of moving data from these Source systems into the hands

42:14 from these Source systems into the hands of the business and if that road has been very bumpy or there’s been a lot of potholes there’s been a lot of mistakes and missteps and the data that I’m getting doesn’t really seem to match what I see in production those become untrusted events that really erode away that confidence that we have that this data is coming to me and I can trust it I really do think we need to have as as the central bi team a a way of justifying here’s what I’m going to give you here’s here’s how we know it’s correct because that really allows

42:46 correct because that really allows people to stop thinking about well just let me extract all these columns with this measures or these I need I need all the information to me in my lap because then I can actually build my own analysis and then the business can dive in and figure out okay what is really valuable in that data or not so I think that’s potentially a data culture challenge that’s also part of this mix you have to address that slowly you have to build a new track record you have to have a really good way of supporting your data loads and exports

43:17 supporting your data loads and exports to other teams so they can trust your data that way what you really want is whatever the whatever comes out of this table it’s been trusted it’s been vetted and you can use it and so that way I can just start grabbing measur and columns and start slapping out bar charts and things and looking for that area where I can improve my business so I think that’s another aspect here not every company has this but I definitely think there are places where this shows up more than others that’s one other thing I would add to your comments there Tommy yeah and I I would also say though that the there’s so you you

43:49 though that the there’s so you you have lockdown systems hard to hard for business people to get access to it I don’t I don’t like that but at the same on the flip side I’m saying there’s a cautionary tail on the other other end as well and and what I don’t think you’re suggesting is hey just grant access to business users to the backend tables and give them give them everything and the reason you don’t do that is because more often than not you’ll erode confidence in the same way

44:19 you’ll erode confidence in the same way because it’s the raw data from the systems and it’s not clean it it needs the business lens on top of it right if you start giving away the raw data to the tables like how many how many tables in your ecosystems right have active or disabled or flags that tell you whether or not the that particular product or whatever is going to show up in a UI interface what they’re expecting is when or how they’ve interacted with data in some system that it matches that

44:51 data in some system that it matches that same system and that’s what you need to provide them right it it so it is curated data yes to some degree maybe not just like fully vetted like fully Dimension fact like here’s your model but it certainly would be a curated version of the the data that you just have sitting at rest in the system I think poti we’re talking slightly different like lenses of data I think you’re what you’re talking about Seth is a little bit more of like the star schema the tables themselves I think I was referring a little bit more

45:22 think I was referring a little bit more to like okay do I just need a table of columns or do I need visuals regardless of where that lives I’m talking about a table of data I know I know you you are talking about that I think what I’m talking about though is more about the visual like going like one step further Beyond like to your point I agree with you 100% set like there’s nothing there’s nothing I disagree with here I just want to make sure like I I think I was talking a bit more about like the step from Source system data Transformations tables and then I’m building a report with visuals as opposed to just giving all

45:53 visuals as opposed to just giving all the data in a table which is to to your point Seth right you’re still giving access to that at the star schema level and that does make sense and you should have trust at that level as well but I’m talking about when I can really just say there’s a bar chart or a series of charts on a page I’m thinking almost like executive level reporting right those Executives have to walk into that report Tommy I’m gonna I need these kpis These are measuring our business this is how we measure performance and then Tommy goes to build them that executive trusts that Tommy’s doing the right thing and making those kpis match the

46:24 thing and making those kpis match the reflection of the actual indication the business to get to that level of trust of this is what we’re going to do to measure our business one you have to trust the person developing it but then two it’s like this is now and so that that’s my distinction there like yeah I was just trying to go a little bit further Beyond just tables of data first I well what I find hilarious here or or or humorous is regardless of cess or yours both of those you can’t not you can’t go into those guns of Blazing with this new communication style right because people

46:55 communication style right because people are if this is the first time time they’re going to be offut because like what how why are you talking that way so to speak and both of your scenarios require a consistent approach to build that way of communicating right I can’t just start going in talking a certain way and expect the other person to reciprocate that way of style or that process if I ask a new executive what keeps you up at night right just randomly they’re going to say who are

47:25 randomly they’re going to say who are you there’s going to be to your point that trust level and if we’re trying to justify that value there is some introductory pieces here of this is the way that we communicate from a bi perspective hey just so this is the new this is the approach that we take because there’s an expectation I forget which one of you said that but that expectation is not just on the delivery and the solution but it is also the how you communicate this is again no different than a good

47:55 this is again no different than a good friend or your or your your spouse or someone special to you if you start automatically wake up in the morning and start communicating them completely different than you are they’re gonna say are you okay are you sick is everything all right or they’ll just sayal this is like just your and are our wives when we start being weird in front of them all right right I’ll see you in a few hours when you calm down exctly calm down go have a coffee go get on grumpy and and we’ll talk right to the to a point there

48:25 we’ll talk right to the to a point there you have to be consistent here is so key because when you walk in a room as bi they’re going they’re have an expectation on how you’re going to communicate how you’re going to talk and how you’re going to listen and I think you have if you’re going to build that justification you’re going to build that trust and confidence you have to deliver that every time communication is a hard thing honestly it’s really hard I I’ll say personally most of the fights that we’ve had in our family have been either between kids between adults has been

48:57 between kids between adults has been around communication issues and that’s inside a family of people you you love you live with all the time like you you’d think you’d be better communicators with them but in reality it’s probably harder to be good communicators within your family and then now I’ve had some very open conversations in our family like well how does it work in like business and I’m and I’m I’m hearing these things of like well I don’t I don’t want to be nagging all the time okay fine what does that look like like okay I need I need this thing I need these things done okay well this is

49:28 things done okay well this is and I’m like this feels like a lot like a business negotiation here like okay let’s build a conon let’s just prioritize it what’s the most priority I’ll work my way through like no I just I just need everything done I just need need like that’s not how this works like there’s not enough time in the day and I want time for myself to relax I don’t want to be working on things so God we’re going down a rabbit hole here it’s communication it’s the same thing it’s like the same thing we have a limited amount of time we have a limited amount of resources in our business situation like I can’t do all the things

49:58 situation like I can’t do all the things I can’t build all the things you really want me to build there’s there is a a level of like pulling back and saying okay let’s really prioritize what’s going to make the biggest impact here so I don’t know if you guys said anything else but I I want to do one of those hot take checks and let’s let’s let’s see if SE anything else before we go I don’t want to hate that but I GNA I I want to hit your comment Tommy but let’s that Seth I’ll close out I’ll close out oh my gosh it’s almost time to be done I can’t even believe that so almost an hour already what’s your hot

50:28 almost an hour already what’s your hot take Tommy so I want to see if you agree disagree or strong one a strong one of the other ones or disagree okay agree or disagree okay got it a brilliant business intelligence Pro agree is agree is useless agree without with poor communication a brilliant business intelligence Pro is useless with poor communication I disagree it depends like I said where like where do they sit if

51:00 I said where like where do they sit if they have to talk to the business yeah it’s going to be a problem if they sit on the back and they’re just building stuff it doesn’t matter I disagree I’m gonna say agree yeah I thinkc go ahead I think I think to your point though Seth I think your depends I think it it gives me the explanation if I’m thinking about this one I’m thinking about this person has to be integrating with the business and asking questions and be able to have that good conversational skill between them and I think where I find wins in selling things and and running a Consulting business and like helping

51:30 Consulting business and like helping companies out I think the individuals that are increasing their ability to communicate in well in front of those business teams to extrapolate out what they’re saying find the most wins and successes with projects building things making the business happy based on to your point Seth having empathy being able to understand where you’re going and being able to project a solution that meets those needs I think it’s extremely important yeah I I guess the reason I disagree is because I

52:02 reason I disagree is because I I I I I know people who are like that and they’re extremely effective at Building Solutions yeah there’s a layer

52:10 Building Solutions yeah there’s a layer between them and the business typically or somebody else that’s with them does that mean that they can’t accomplish the same thing in a quarter of the time of somebody else well that that’s the value they’re very good at what they do in terms of data and Building Solutions are they slightly off and they can’t like they need help with building requirements or engaging with the business yeah but like are they still extremely effective yes are they the Unicorn no like most people aren’t yeah that’s your point there I think it’s

52:40 that’s your point there I think it’s really the point question you’re you’re asking Tommy I think is are you the Unicorn or not and I think that’s that’s a that’s a much better like yeah it’s harder to find those people that can do both things super technical but also super communicative around understanding the needs that’s a very hard person to find the only thing IID push back but I definitely see what you’re saying is they’re probably great communicating with you from the technical side they’re a poor translator of the business because I I I would also say I’ve seen the opposite I’ve seen fantastic communicators that have no idea how to

53:10 communicators that have no idea how to translate that into a technical solution because there like we had one experience where it was like yep dialed in requirements and what they asked for was a report and the guy was going to build an entire Warehouse out of the entire third party solution before develop delivering anything it’s like no like that’s nope that’s not the solution here right so it goes both ways yeah would that one I I would I want to like I want to close out with my final

53:40 like I want to close out with my final thoughts on communication in general just final thoughts I I think it’s it’s it’s poignant because business intelligence will put you in front of many different levels within an organization and what I’ve seen as one of the largest challenges for or business intelligence developers right is communicating up or addressing very large problems and they’re they’re similar but slightly different and in terms of like communicating up stay away from details developers

54:12 up stay away from details developers have a really and when I was developing and didn’t have a lot of experience I like the develop the mentality is that you have a hard time separating the value of all the details and the things you figured out with the actual deliverable and there’s a time and a place for the details it’s when you’re diving into code or you’re reviewing it or somebody really wants to know the business logic Etc when you’re talking the project keep it high level keep it deliverable F Focus so it’s summarize it all be outcome specific right like where

54:44 all be outcome specific right like where are we at in the project how much more do we have to go what like those are the things as you’re communicating state or how far along are we or when we’re going to give something that are really impactful and important and can trim down a conversation from like 10 minutes where you’re going on and on and on and on about all the Transformations and the visuals and like leadership is like okay appreciate it but they’ll start pushing you right keep

55:14 but they’ll start pushing you right keep it high level you can always go down into the details but learn how to summarize your projects and then the other one is similar but a key three three question thing thing that I that I learned from a previous boss when dealing with like the big problems the very large issues like we are totally going to miss a timeline like the big issues succinctly answer what are we

55:44 issues succinctly answer what are we seeing what actions are you taking and what is the impact because every situation you’re going to be in you’re going to run into problems where and sometimes they could be small some sometimes medium sometimes large right business will always adapt it has to but answering like having answers to those things keeps it in a level where leadership or other people can make decisions immediately as opposed to getting hung up and and just being like

56:15 getting hung up and and just being like okay well what are you seeing and that you just describe the problem what actions are you taking I have no idea well that’s a problem like what are what are the paths we can go down what are the impacts of going down each one of those things and having those answers right out of the gate is extremely beneficial in not only leadership looking at you with like a lot of value right from the standpoint like man this person really brought him authored you’re not it’s not a fire drill right oh crap something really went bad what

56:46 oh crap something really went bad what are you seeing what are the actions you’re taking what is the impact communicate that upwards and and those are I think key things that I’ve learned over over time like that at going from a developer into management and Leadership positions where I’m always looking for always trying to coach people into those types of conversations or things I’ve learned through experience as well right I love that and I’m glad you’re going through this Seth because I can

57:16 going through this Seth because I can see myself five years ago listening to this podcast and getting very wored going man there’s a lot of things I need to work on so I I want to also offer some pract practical advice if you feel that you’re one of those people that like I could really improve on my communication skills but where do I start there’s really three things that have transformed I think myself practice if you have anything that you’re working on or or report or project record yourself see it actually how it actually sounds and that honestly

57:47 how it actually sounds and that honestly and that’s that’s tough if the what we do on the podcast I think has saved me a little in terms of my ability to communicate and that goes to my second area practice dialogue if you live with someone if you have a friend say I’m want to share something with you and I know you have no context to this try to communicate with them see how much you stumble over your words or how hard it is to go we’re looking at a call center report try to explain the value to them and if they actually get it and then answer their questions oh you’re not all use your wife for all those

58:17 not all use your wife for all those things I quite a bit so so how’s this sound yeah how but truly because if she’s completely blank or a friend of mine is completely blank on what I just showed she doesn’t get it how hard for someone else and then the last part that we haven’t really touched on but it’s so important I actually learned this from my former boss at my old organization read the room try to answer questions before they’re asked and a lot of times that

58:47 they’re asked and a lot of times that depends on the person so one thing I really focus on now if I have a new client if I have a new stakeholder if whoever I’m working with like can you tell me about the person I’m going to meet with are they technically Savvy do they know this information do they like things shorten to the point or they they want things descript written out you may communicate very well with one person and have a very poor experience with another so also understanding your audience that person their Tendencies habitually and their just personality

59:20 habitually and their just personality can Inc greatly increase your chances of increasing the value so really practice practice dialogue with someone else and then reading the room of the audience I like a lot of these things and I think for communication around I guess things that I deal with a lot with on a regular basis is trying to sift out through what things are political and what things are technical challenges I think there’s like a political challenge to a lot of these things that you’re trying to accomplish people are just resistant to things just being done a certain way others are not

59:52 being done a certain way others are not and that’s not a challenge for them it’s more of a technical challenge to their to their company so I think there’s just for me there’s a being able to sift through are we technically not there or is there something else going on politically that is causing challenges or pain to get things done correctly certain te not every team is at the same strength not every team is willing to share their data across different across the organization so I think there’s also some level of like I think a lot of it is I don’t know I I think of the analogy

60:23 I don’t know I I think of the analogy of like you’re you’re program managing sometimes right you have all the responsibility you have none of the power and and so I think about from some of the communication is the better you can communicate is the better you can get people on your side to to get them excited about what you’re able to produce for them and I think a lot of this is really investing in the value you will see from better communication will ultimately produce better products all these good things both Tommy and Seth’s comments here I was

60:53 Tommy and Seth’s comments here I was trying to write them down because they were so there such good ins there’s really no good insights left for me at the at this point so you just kind me at the at this point so you just get the the leftovers from Mike with of get the the leftovers from Mike with that being said well we really do appreciate you listening to the podcast we we thank you very much this is an hour of your time that you’ve spent with us we appreciate you using your ears with our time we know your time is valuable we really appreciate you being part of our community we’d love for you to be able to share this out with other people in the community if you found this Val this conversation valuable if communication is a challenge for you and

61:24 communication is a challenge for you and your teams might be a good subtle way of trying to get other people thinking about doing better communication and the value of that as well Tommy where else can you find the podcast yeah you can find the podcast on Apple and Spotify or wherever you at your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating helps us out a ton today personally I’m actually interested if you actually have something off the communication that you want us to talk about maybe something we got into or a scenario that you’re in well you can actually ask us you can actually go to

61:54 actually ask us you can actually go to powerbi. com leave your name and a great question around this I’m actually really intrigued if you guys have anything related to this and finally join us live see if we actually picked it up on Tuesdays and Thursdays a central and join the conversation on all powerbi tips social media channels what Tommy’s really asking for is he wants you to communicate with us give us some communic get us some Fe us yeah yeah let’s let’s hear it feel free to head us up on social media channels we’ll be we’ll be watching those as well and also you can visit that website PBI i/p

62:26 you can visit that website PBI i/p podcast and you can add your questions there and add other topics we’re always looking for the community to provide more topics on what we’ll talk about next thank you all so much and we’ll see you next time

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