The Power of a Good Agenda - Ep. 374

Mike, Tommy, and Seth discuss why a clear meeting agenda matters, how it improves alignment and follow-through, and practical ways to run better recurring meetings.

News & Announcements

• Being a PM at Microsoft: The power of a good meeting agenda – BI Polar — If you’re scheduling a meeting, you’re spending your own time and the time of everyone you invite. Show professionalism and respect by providing a clear agenda for the meeting in the invitation. Meeting agendas may…
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• Power BI Theme Generator — Power BI.tips - The worlds best theme generator for Power BI reports. Increase your speed to develop stunning reports using this free theme generator. Themes are essential for any report developer’s tool belt. Visit…

Main Discussion: The Power of a Good Agenda

A solid agenda is more than a list of topics - it is the tool that sets expectations, keeps meetings focused, and drives decisions to clear next steps. In this episode, the team breaks down how to structure agendas for recurring meetings, how to timebox discussions, and how to avoid the most common meeting failure modes (meandering conversations, unclear owners, and no follow-through).

Looking Forward

If you want your team to move faster without adding more meetings, start by making the ones you already have more intentional: define the purpose, publish an agenda, and end with explicit owners and actions. Small changes compound.

Episode Transcript

0:34 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone good day morning good day day good day here we go it’s our days are getting shorter the end of the year is getting closer we are one week away I think from Thanksgiving next week’s thanksgiv really yeah yeah time flies right it’s always nice when the holiday surprise you you oh y don’t get to work for a day next week we have off oh sweet short week

1:07 week we have off oh sweet short week excellent I’m not going to lie with the whole single consultant gig whenever I know there’s like a few four days in the back of my head I’m like what an excellent time to work I think just to get stuff done it’s like oh no everyone else is expecting me to be off but man if I had if you gave me four days with no client calls and just to do like R& D or just like dive into all right all right let’s dive into this one I like this Tommy all right let me just give a quick intro for the topic here I think this is a great

1:37 the topic here I think this is a great introduction that you’re talking about here Tommy this is why we do what we do but today our topic is an article from Matthew roach talking about being a PM at Microsoft that’s our main article okay so sorry Tommy I didn’t mean to cut you off no no you’re good I want to do your your topic here because I think this is a really interesting topic so Tommy when there’s nothing constraining your time when you have nothing going on what you spend your time on this is I think this is where the question is kind think this is where the question is coming from so I and I do try to of coming from so I and I do try to devote time and I I think Google had

2:07 devote time and I I think Google had like a 10% randomized time and they do I always yeah and I try to do that too where take on a project that you like Google has us like take on whatever project you want one day a week or something like that or some some part of your time work on whatever project you want for a day I’m taking something either from fabric that I want to get more into I have a few data sets that I’ve been getting from apis one my favorite one’s actually been I have a bunch of stars on GitHub that I had from my previous account now and because I want to always go back

2:38 because I want to always go back like what was that one shell AI thing or what was that one AI app that or all the things that I’ve starred so basically I’m always trying to integrate that in fabric some way okay so how can I improve that in a notebook what are the different methods and what can be faster so I’m timing that and obviously the the fun one that has yet to show a profit which it will is all the AI stuff is all the all the so I’m always diving into that and it usually starts in the method of I read something all the RSS

3:09 method of I read something all the RSS feeds I get very interested down the rabbit hole you follow the dopamine towards the the top yeah follow the ADHD down or the the topic let the let the dop let the dopamine guide you into your next learning yeah so Tommy have we’ve been talking the podcast AI stuff came out you were pro all up in the AI to begin with but like you would spend all your extra time on AI related stuff a a ton so I have I have what is it 375 gigabytes of local models

3:41 what is it 375 gigabytes of local models on my on my computer wow yeah some hard drive on that then oh yeah well I was telling my wife she’s like well why why do you have to have that all on the computer I’m like I could run this in the cloud but I don’t have to spend money this way true so that’s a big thing right now everything’s very cost intensive with a lot of the local models and again one of the big projects I’m working on is how can I integrate everything that’s going on with these local models be able to talk to it or communicate with it yep and with actually a semantic model with

4:11 and with actually a semantic model with actually something that’s going on in fabric since especially now you have that SQL connection to it okay so I’m I’m testing things out there ever so slowly all right all right Seth when you’re not thinking about work you’re not driving the ship of business what let’s just be clear there like I’m probably always thinking about about work oh work oh no it could be if we’re saying if we’re saying it’s quiet I get quiet time

4:41 we’re saying it’s quiet I get quiet time there’s a week you don’t have to think about work if there’s no pressing issues at work what are you what are you thinking about what are you put your time into what are you thinking about all the things I can’t during like I’m my my schedule is very meeting intensive which is very disruptive to two kinds of things is deeper analysis on data sets that that require just a a level of time chunks to get through to really

5:11 of time chunks to get through to really like process how we how how and where whatever I’m looking for is it need needs to needs to be an outcome needs to be achieved and I’m I’m working through the data and then playing around with new features don’t get enough time for that so it’s it’s just under making sure I understand new capabilities that can be implemented into the solutions figure out different different better ways to build reports and stuff like

5:42 reports and stuff like that if I that if I Haven computer yeah I know it’s more time on the computer right you’re you’re choosing the the more PC time I think I’m in the same camp I think I’m in the same camp on a lot of things I think I like exploring and automating and so if work things aren’t pressing I’m not on a client call or trying to figure out something I think I’m I’m doing a very similar thing Tommy to both you and Seth I think I’m trying to figure out okay what’s the new features what’s being released how do I get my head around it what it what does it work like trying to spend time on that if it wasn’t if it wasn’t required

6:14 that if it wasn’t if it wasn’t required that I had to be in front of a computer I think I would spend more time building Lego Technic buildings or we’re not if we’re not in front of computers then yes yeah there’s there’s a whole things that yeah that that spool the mind like art working hanging out with buddies working on a bike oh working on cars and bikes yes that’s something I’d like to more of working in the shop it’s nice I encouraged my son to take a welding class at high school very good idea and

6:45 class at high school very good idea and I thought well this is one thing I regret growing up like I I did I did shop things I worked with my hands I think I did a shop class or two like growing up I liked it I enjoyed it I thoroughly enjoyed like building things and creating stuff so regardless of whatever it is whether it’s work stuff or it’s not stuff I think I’m always going to be creating something I just really get excited about building something or coming up with the idea and being able to like fabricate into something I think if I didn’t have to do work stuff I think I’d probably really get into 3D printing a bit more or something that was like Milling or

7:15 or something that was like Milling or some computer like based cutting building creating of things I think that’s something just works really well with my brain I enjoy that and would have a lot of fun with that as well I thought you were gonna say if I’m not in front of a computer I’m G to spend more time with my kids I’m like that’s fair that to let’s just say let’s just be honest that was a given for all of us right we’d all we’d all spend more time with our kids but we’re talking about everyone that’s yes I would agree we all would spend more time with our kids if we had Tommy would throw more baseballs and have them run over by cars and

7:45 and have them run over by cars and things like that I’m playing catch with the kids all the time I try to do that and I told them I already told them hey anytime you want to play catch with your father you just let me know kind this is interesting did your dad play catch with you when when you were a kid grudgingly oh so so you’re the ungrudgingly dad that plays catch I think I enjoy it more than they do okay really I I could play catch I’m like a like a a golden retriever you’re like a gold just keep keep throwing the ball okay I’ll have to

8:14 keep throwing the ball okay I’ll have to ask this because I’ve played catch with my kids a couple times do do they throw it to the glove now because there’s there’s sometimes when I play catch we play catch and it’s great other times I play catch and I’m literally walking all over the yard trying to find the baseball or whatever we’re throwing back and forth in my personal life and what I’m stealing my kids is I’m very incentive based so we just don’t play catch and just play catch I say hey 10 catches 10 throws a Swedish fish oh oh my bribing them now okay I like this oh

8:46 my bribing them now okay I like this oh and the contract I write with my daughter at the beginning of every school year OHA contracts now yeah and she’s got to read it she gon is there going to be overtime for the billable rate just in case there’s there’s no rate on that oh there’s no r on this one okay no no no no no no no we’re not there yet so but I think the incentive program is very strong for a kid and even for us too like why do we spend all this time in front to your point why would you do the 3D printing there’s some joy in that yeah why are you spending time in front of

9:17 why are you spending time in front of your computer when you could be upstairs with your children true or looking outside I’ve heard a phrase recently on like the social media things there’s a phrase like called touching grass have you heard of this phrase now oh right so like if if you’re spending a lot of time inside the house working on computers and doing a lot of things you’re like okay I’m going to spend some time I’m G to go touch grass like meaning I’m gonna go outside and like be outside for a bit like I’m I’m gonna go touch not not that grass Tommy this is I know you’re near Chicago actually grass like

9:48 you’re near Chicago actually grass like like physically GRE grass my wife the bus but she she started reading this book it’s called grounding or earthing okay it’s basically like you sleep better closer to the actual Earth oh yeah yeah I’ve I’m gonna leave it there it’s one of a whole different discussion he explains it to me I Tommy’s like I’m I’m like one with the ground I’m in the basement like what I said 12 hours a day I’m like I’m I basically the ground at this point I my wife is normal it’s a little crunchy

10:19 wife is normal it’s a little crunchy little crunchy little crunchy Tommy Tom Tommy you’re you’re so in tune with what she’s saying you’ve put yourself underground yes that’s what I was to say just where I live live I live as a as a as a a troll underground cuz I’m I’m so with it dude I have I have such a good setup now when I have those late nights I we’ll get I have a pillow and a blanket down here oh my god there just some nights like two in the morning rather than trying to navigate upstairs and wake someone up wait wait wait time out you said two in the morning yeah so

10:51 out you said two in the morning yeah so you’re burning a couple late nights then here ever so often oh you’re too young man you’re too you need more gray in that beard you got to get a little older I can’t make it past like 12 like maybe I’m pushing at I’m done at 1 man this is probably why I went to bed last night at night at so oh so oh p. m. I’m like it’s it’s after it’s before now like how are you sleeping while you’re here like oh no you meant you meant pmm it’s all those local models man it’s

11:23 pmm it’s all those local models man it’s AI AI time keeps running while I sleeping again with all the words that we use right people start saying these things local models you’re like where where are the local models no I’m talking about data on my computer I’m not talking about about people what are you doing all day I’m just hanging out with local models just building local models really and they pay you for that exactly oh the words we say people don’t understand what we’re doing that’s funny well good fun little intro there it was just some some interesting banter

11:53 just some some interesting banter here so along these line let’s let’s talk about our main topic if this is a good transition anything else you want to talk about cuz I don’t want to cut off too short if we’re oh go ahead all right so the power of a good agenda this is coming from a person I think we all greatly respect Matthew roach a Microsoft PM he’s been doing SQL and database and he’s been around the space for extremely long time his almost his whole career I think has been around and you have to correct me if I’m wrong here on on some of this stuff Matthew roach has been around this experience

12:23 roach has been around this experience database databasing doing data things for his entire career I believe and he has a great blog it’s called ssbi pool. com and in his recent article he talks about being a p at Microsoft the power of a good meeting agenda and just walks through just some talking points that he’s observed and how he likes to be efficient when he comes into these meetings he lists a couple like bullet points of hey if we going to run a good meeting everyone’s busy there’s a lot of things going on these

12:54 there’s a lot of things going on these are some good best practices you should do when running meetings and I I feel like in your career like you come in as a young bright-eyed person into the into the work space you don’t know any better like you just show up you either make meetings or you think about meetings I think meetings have a really neat purpose and I think I’ve changed my methodology on what a meeting is and what you’re supposed to do with a meeting over time and I think it kind meeting over time and I think it aligns a little bit with this article of aligns a little bit with this article so let me just pause right there Tommy want to give us some like you want to give us some like context here for starting off this know context here for starting off this topic here today yeah for all those who

13:25 topic here today yeah for all those who are thinking one of these topics that we’re talking about last week we talked about having a good team this week we’re talking about a good agenda and for some of you were thinking how well does this actually equate with business intelligence and data and I think a huge argument that we’d all make and we all feel very strongly again is the technology and your skills are only going to get you so far in this career and also the success of of actually doing well in an organization or with a client and for us we deal with a lot of meetings there’s a lot of scoping calls

13:56 meetings there’s a lot of scoping calls there’s a lot of status calls we have to juggle and you probably are listening to you have to juggle a ton there’s a lot of hats we wear and it’s not just the technical side so one of the things I love about this article and one of the things I’m going to love getting into you guys with today is really like what does the meeting look like for you now now that you guys probably actually lead meetings I think especially to your point Mike in the very beginning you were just there you sat there in the meeting and you were asked to do things and what do

14:27 you were asked to do things and what do you think makes a meeting successful I would also love to talk about what makes a meeting unsuccessful where where are the the gotas I want to I want I love that I think that’s really good I I want to ask you guys do you remember when you started your careers whatever that wherever that was your first like real corporate job do you remember those first couple meetings like do the room like I me I I can vividly remember my first like office job not

14:58 remember my first like office job not doing like other things and I remember coming into the work and I know I can literally see the room I can walk down the hallway I’m coming I can literally in my mind I can remember those first couple meetings that I attended and just like showed up with my little notebook had a little notebook had a little pen I would Dro down notes in the meeting because that was what we did I I have vivid memories of this do do you guys remember that do you have like those that me do that burned into your brain I don’t know I’m just curious probably not till later because the the organiz I

15:29 because the the organiz I joined was much smaller so it was a lot of lot of one-onone okay I I kind do but more like the atmosphere was like you were working with the same small group of people all the time right okay gotcha I I can’t say I hit that where oh we’re we’re in a meeting right thing until Consulting it’s like when you’re when you’re going into some of the bigger organizations or you have a wider audience or you’re even doing some sort

16:00 audience or you’re even doing some sort audience or you’re even doing some presentation and it’s in a meeting of presentation and it’s in a meeting environment where there’s the big table and everybody’s around there and yeah like so some definite yeah memories on there okay I’m taking the opposite approach my first job I I’m actually gonna take my experience from the second opportunity I had because the first one was Consulting at a marketing agency so every meeting was big in every meeting you needed to know what the cost per click was and how many views so you’re it was way more of this almost like presentation than it was at me meeting

16:29 presentation than it was at me meeting once I got into the business intelligence space I remember we always have these status meetings on Mondays which I used to be excited for but then by like month two by week two I was not excited for status meeting where I started getting very frustrated with these meetings or any meeting at this larger company was it was always a lot it for an hour yep you’re 25 minutes in and everything that needed be communicated was already communicated we had an hour we out right no no oh no oh no we sit there for the

17:02 no no oh no oh no we sit there for the whole hour you got you got to do other things well we have another 25 minutes I remember just like try I think maybe physically I was like just rubbing my face going what are we doing I got stuff to do this is a good point this is okay I like that you brought that up all right so I think this is a great transition Point into the article because I think this is actually speaking to some of Matthew’s initial points right away in the article okay so awesome I I’m I’m shocked that I can actually remember those first jobs I’ll just give you a little bit more so Tommy you gave some contacts

17:32 more so Tommy you gave some contacts Seth you gave some contacts to your first jobs my first job was a sales job so it was doing sales work first off a sneeze for those who wondering if mic also disappeared yeah there’s a problem sorry my audio didn’t cut out I literally just had the tickle in my nose and I just had to sneeze so I apologize had to mute myself and and get a sneeze out real quick so my first job was a sales job and I remember very vividly we were doing sales work it was HVAC equipment and we would come into this meeting room room and I remember just sitting down these chairs we’d all these like little rollar around chairs we’d

18:02 like little rollar around chairs we’d all sit around the table okay what’s going on what projects were happening and like go through like again that standup status meeting what’s what’s the task for this week start allocating people to work in jobs and distribute from like there and that was like a weekly meeting I think we had as well but that one I didn’t have the same experience as you Tommy I didn’t sit in the meeting and have to like wait for the whole meeting to end it was kind for the whole meeting to end it was like we got in did her thing if we of like we got in did her thing if we got done early great we’re out and doing other things so it’s funny that we all remembered like that first experience all right so let’s jump over to the topic so

18:32 topic so Matthew goes through the first part and sets up some things at the beginning of the meeting or at the beginning of the article just talking about it’s a theme it’s it’s around collaboration it’s about building data culture it’s about as a as a product manager a PM you’re always trying to figure out who’s needs to talk to who making sure things get unblocked making decisions on should we really fix this feature or should we just get done enough to move move forward who’s who’s who’s the long poess what do we need to reallocate

19:03 poess what do we need to reallocate resources or people to fix these larger issues we we underestimated those kind issues we we underestimated those things so I liked his bullet of things so I liked his bullet points towards the middle of the article so maybe we should just walk through some of those maybe maybe holistically and then dive into each okay each part if if if right like I think the the main bullets from the article revolve around the the key point of first if you want to have an effective meeting or a good meeting State the scope of the

19:34 meeting State the scope of the conversation State decisions that need to be made and the expected outcomes you want to achieve as the meeting organizer and then at the end of the article goes through like all the reasons why the these are important things and I I think these are great points that we should dive into because and and why but across the board like it think the intent of the article is it like we can use it as a guide posts and also like drive into some of the other

20:05 also like drive into some of the other questions of like why people don’t do this but if if we think about what meetings are even in the example of like we have an hour we’ve achieved what we wanted to talk about but then we have to stay here because the meeting is for an hour right like that’s just counterintuitive if you’re looking at the the meeting in in the way that you Matthew presents but it in in also like effective time management right like

20:36 effective time management right like there are so many things that people have to do in a day and meetings should can and should be very specific slices to solve problems like what’s interesting to me is like how like I guess the first question that comes to my mind is when do you guys initiate a meeting because in my world a lot can be handled in teams chats right and and either one of two things

21:08 right and and either one of two things happens either the scope of the audience we need multiple sets of input after we’ve had conversations in teams right that I need to broaden the audience I need nuggets of information from multiple different individuals or the conversation that we’re like having is Extreme nuanced and is not getting picked up between the parties or like would require a novel to write it it’s just better to talk things out and those are the drivers

21:39 out and those are the drivers for me to like get into the day-to-day meetings man that’s there are so many good things okay I trying to write down notes as fast as I could on all the things you wanted to propose there go ahead Tommy I was gonna say too I think I learned this from from you guys from when I started the Consulting gig especially the the independent where if anything be goes past seven messages on teams jump on a call actually just jump on voice and so I think that one of the points you’re talking about too is

22:09 the points you’re talking about too is there could be minor meetings too but as you’re talking I want to make sure that as we have this conversation today we put this in the context too of what’s unique to us in the business intelligence World really because really there’s two main types of meetings that we’re going to have we’re either going to have a call a conversation with a stakeholder whether that’s Discovery status or completion or it’s going to be an internal meeting with with a team and because this is more unique to us we’re not just having the same type of meeting

22:39 not just having the same type of meeting right so and that can the same items I think still fall in line in terms of what Matthew is talking about and you should accomplish but it does change also our approach or at least it changes my Approach here as well I think my meetings have definitely changed over time depending on your role I remember a lot when I was doing like product management it was a lot more of like coordinating different teams understand like having meetings like what do you need what are your what are your complaints what are your issues trying to figure out those look like and

23:10 trying to figure out those look like and then I feel like I learned I feel like I I have changed a lot of my meetings from there’s a lot of like status updates people want to see your face or see something now and like hey what’s going on what’s the status here’s what we said we’re going to do last week here’s what here’s where we’re out on those things so it’s like more a status update to your point Seth those probably could be handled with like an email a status update that way but I think there’s something comforting in like the Consulting space around having people show up and know that there’s

23:40 show up and know that there’s I’m dedicating time to you and the project and the things that are happening I think that’s there I feel like I changed my mentality around meetings from let’s just show up and talk about a problem to do to your point Seth do one-on-one conversations with individuals or small groups of people two or three people figure out what the problem is solve the problem the meeting is to here’s the problem statement here’s the solution do we all agree is

24:11 here’s the solution do we all agree is prove like not necessar it’s not necessarily we’re coming we’re not coming to the meeting to solve the problem the meeting is saying this is the solution we’re going to do to this problem is anyone does anyone have any good valid like experience or things that we need to do diive or or not do this is there any why we shouldn’t be doing SO meetings aren’t there to be decision points I can’t remember the number of meetings I’ve been in when there was like too many people in a meeting no one had an agenda and we were just going to talk about problems and so we just talked about the problem

24:41 we just talked about the problem we were trying to solve for like an hour

24:42 we were trying to solve for like an hour and then we left and we’re like okay well last five minutes who’s going to do it and you’re like trying to dull out tasks at the end like like figure out what’s and then you leave and then you hope it gets done and then you have another meeting to say well where did we go and like every like I’m busy I didn’t get time to do it yeah well that that’s that’s people not having skin in the game right yeah but ultimately like I think what before we get into the specific meeting I think what we’re talking about is the purpose for the purpose or the types of meetings that we have and and I whatever the buckets

25:15 have and and I whatever the buckets right I have ex my first example is hey I’m having teams chat conversations right like we’re trying to solve business problems we need a quick sync yeah there there are a couple that you’re talking about status update meetings right that’s another bringing bringing everybody on the same page like making making sure that whatever group this is we’re making progress towards our goals right so everybody’s on the same page collaboration and Alignment M Mike to your point like you were just talking about like we have to bring these teams together so that everybody

25:46 these teams together so that everybody is aligned on the importance of why we’re talking about the thing I think there are also the meetings where like presentation of new new ideas or approaches or like and I’m sure a lot of your meetings are that way like your consultative or sales or like hey why do you need whiteb sessions things like that yes and then and then the other ones which are probably less structured but team engagement right like you’re you’re bringing people together to socialize more so than

26:17 together to socialize more so than achieve a business result and I think the context of those is important because the like how you would create an agenda or the scope of the meeting is going to be different you want to you like like lay out the framework for what what is the purpose for why I as an organizer of a meeting are calling everybody everybody here I like that a lot that can’t be understated and I feel like we spend the

26:48 understated and I feel like we spend the whole hour on just what you said Seth because to bring up the old old conversations I remember when I started leading meetings myself and the early on with especially Discovery calls to your point Mike I was missing the Mt I could literally during the conversation feeling my just throwing balls out in left field not even looking at the it’s where’s passing to I I actually remember one this is bringing up where I could like I was like seeing myself trip over boxes like this is not going well and I know that I can’t say that but

27:19 know that I can’t say that but I know that this is not going well and but but I think to that point though too is when you get people in a room in that very beginning part regardless if those are people that you talk to every day you have that same meeting every week or that’s the first time you’ve ever spoke to that to that person that initial introductory of why are we here why are did I bring you in this room and what are we supposed to get out of that to me is is the maker break if I were to take everything

27:49 break if I were to take everything everything else out of the conversation today that would be my critical piece that I have implemented in every call I have even if it’s a call that I have every Monday and it’s still the same outcomes the first thing out of my mouth if I’m leading a meeting is here’s what here’s why we’re here today here’s what we’re trying to get here’s what we’re trying to get out of this this is our objectives today now we can actually begin to whatever boring things or whatever we’re going to get through but that has to be stated in the beginning question are you stating that

28:19 beginning question are you stating that in the beginning because it’s also part of the of the invite invite oo o that’s a good one so you’re saying like part of the actual event so what’s interesting to me like so so Matthew touches on this towards the end of the article but I think it falls into the scope of the conversation which is if I’m sending a meeting if I’m setting the scope of the conversation that means I’m adding an agenda I’m adding I’m adding in context

28:52 agenda I’m adding I’m adding in context of the meeting invite what I’m trying to achieve and what decisions like I I need or outcomes I need to have out of the meeting and the reason I’m doing that is also a point he makes which is then you’re giving the opportunity for somebody you invited to go I don’t need to be here or so and so from my team is already in there just give me the outcome of the of the meeting or this is the only bullet point that’s of importance to us in here along with the

29:23 importance to us in here along with the feedback that we can provide to Tommy because if you’re not doing that then you’re you’re not giving the audience the opportunity to come or go until they’re actually there man so that’s a good point I I like your point there Seth in most of my meetings I try to put an agenda with them and usually I try and think about how to your point Tommy like you go in the meeting you’re stating like this the objectives I think that’s very important you should never put a meeting in someone’s calendar and let’s or some objectives that are there right

29:54 objectives that are there right hey we’re going to talk about XYZ things I’m going to icit feedback I’m going to ask for opinions on this design opinions on whatever these things are and then it’s like let’s let’s follow up the end of the meeting with questions and action items like I always have this like note at the end of the meeting of I want to leave that meeting with what are we going to do and who is responsible for it as a PM I think a lot of my meetings very much turned into great we talked for 45 minutes about things all right here’s what I heard in this meeting I I do a lot of summaries inside the context here’s what I heard

30:25 inside the context here’s what I heard this meeting we need to do X Y and Z we’re going to need to build this new computer we’re going to need to build this new bit of software these functions are missing whatever the whatever the thing is you build out those light items and say okay this is what we said needs to be accomplished we all agree that this because we’ve talked about in the meeting great now who’s going to Let’s assign that and then it’ll go I would literally be on a hard nose about this I would go to the people and say okay who’s going to be able to take this one someone would step up and and nominate themselves and say okay great this is one thing I learned as a PM is people aren’t good at

30:56 as a PM is people aren’t good at estimating their time but you can’t make the estimate for them like you can have an opinion on like how long it should take but you need to let other people say okay Tommy you’re going to build this new large language model okay great you’re take on the responsibility that when do you think you can have it done and so it should always be the task and when you think you’d have it completed by because I’ll leave you alone until you get close or towards the end of that and say how are we doing but when you hit after when you when we pass past that time of like hey Tommy says I’m going to deliver it in a week next week I’ll have the large language model next

31:28 I’ll have the large language model next week when we have that meeting again I’m like Tommy where we at the jingle model and you can be like yep delivered done all right check it off the Box we move forward my responsibil as the PM was to make sure that that was the status that I was caring about but if it didn’t get done then I was holding your hand to the flame because you gave me the timeline it wasn’t me I’m putting the onus the ownership back on you to like deliver it and there that’s a big point though too this one of the convert earlier episodes we talked about was how do we know when someone’s ready to level up to me what you’re doing Mike

31:58 level up to me what you’re doing Mike and I think what a lot of these parts are is we’re also giving that people that ability to lead and we’re enabling and empowering people too rather than Mike you’re gonna be doing spark 1. 3 okay when are you gonna upgrade 1. 4 we need by next week moving on all of a sudden now you as a leader can’t be like you as the meeting Runner shouldn’t be doing out I think timelines because it’s you don’t you may know right like we would like to have this by then but you tell me you’re the leader here you’re the expert yes and that also enables other people rather

32:28 that also enables other people rather than everyone sitting there rocking back and forth going I know what I have to do Mike already talked to me about this but I don’t think anyone likes being told about their timeline like am I going to sit in that meeting and prioritize all your work because of your what Your Boss and what you’re like I can’t do that like that’s up to you and your boss sometimes because this is what I always use the phrase about PMS right PMS have all the responsibility and none of the power right it’s always like I got to get everyone on my team I got I gota like get everyone like on the same train

32:56 like get everyone like on the same train so we can like okay okay everyone get excited about this we can do it like go team go like but I didn’t have the authority of being like okay stop doing that other stuff because that’s just not like yeah that’s part of your job don’t do it do do my stuff first right I didn’t have the authority to do that as a PM because you’re everyone reported to different people in the organization un and I I think another important point is unlike our conversation here which Meander all over the place sorry no no it’s

33:28 the place sorry no no it’s yeah the scope is important for meetings because the conversation can get taken in other directions outside that scope and those are opportunities to redirect it right a a perfect example I think is like one that you’re even talking about like what is like the type of of team meeting that you’re doing are you are you grooming something right are we estimating work yes that that’s not like a lot of the times that’s not like the status update

33:58 times that’s not like the status update meeting of like how are we progressing on work right so there’s like Hey we’re here today to talk about net new things the technical problems we’re going to have and estimate work right grooming sessions and then there’s like do we need to have like the standup where it’s like how are we progressing on the work that we said we’re going to do or what are the challenges of blockers and it’s purely status update it’s not to talk about the specifics of each thing right or it’s very regimented and you’re saying every every body get we go around

34:28 saying every every body get we go around the team yep every provide everybody provides their status updates if there’s time left then we talk about specific things that people may have challenges about right yes and but everybody’s on the same page right and that’s what I think you can do as a meeting organizer that does respect people’s time is if that’s what you’re like sometimes standups if they’re scheduled for 30 minutes sometimes they take 10 minutes yeah people can have 20 minutes back in their day other times

34:59 minutes back in their day other times it’s the full 30 because we’re talking about like extended issues of whatever and then there’s another conversation related to some of these activities that happen in the latter half of the meeting and you do consume the whole time yeah and in those situations I want to add real quick in those situations where you have more longer discussions on those standup meetings it’s probably best to think about okay everyone gives their to your point the initial objective the 10-minute standup any blockers and anyone who’s already done their meeting

35:29 anyone who’s already done their meeting anyone who’s done their part right okay Tommy’s finished his update Tommy has no bearing on the issue that sets happen with some data loading process okay fine all right who needs to stay after and continue to like say like hey I got some more things I need xxyz you I got some more things I need xxyz I need three people here these are know I need three people here these are the people I need to talk to can we just stay and meet a little bit longer extend our stand up for just those people and Tommy all right you’re good to go like so that’s I think efficient so I guess what is you you guys might have a different perspective but in in larger

36:00 different perspective but in in larger organizations and and mine the current one I’m in not being the only one yeah what are your guys’s thoughts though in those area where you’re you’re stating hey we’re going to talk about a specific project with a smaller group of the team because all the team members are doing different things a driver in in organizations is typically you’re having team meetings where everybody understands what the team

36:31 everybody understands what the team collectively is working on mhm but to your point Mike is it better to say hey you’re not you’re not part of this project so I only need these two people people or do you like the maybe I’m not articulating I think let me me the theory the theory here is like the team should be aware of what the team is working on so everybody is aware of said thing yes in in in theory I agree in

37:04 thing yes in in in theory I agree in practice does that actually work or do people tune out I so I would argue that if you have if that meeting so depends I think it depends on the size of that meeting right if I’ve been on stand-ups that are like 20 people large there’s a lot of different updates coming across and there’s a lot of like really big cross team collaboration things in those situations when the team gets that large there’s a lot of people in there that are in the meeting like okay we’re working with the identity team and we’re working with the the data team those two teams need to talk together there’s usually leads in those areas that are

37:34 usually leads in those areas that are going to figure things out and then give that information back so yes it’s nice to at least in the standup and say hey I have a blocker I’m working this issue I need help from this team that I think is good to give that high level but the other teams like the UI team they may not care one iota they just need to know okay those teams are going to talk and then they move on so I think in in larger standup type meetings totally fine to let people leave that meeting that are not participating and again the idea is this is an open invitation right if you think you need

38:04 invitation right if you think you need to be involved Seth you pick the team that you need to talk to right Harry we’re going to talk to the identity and the data team that’s what we’re going to talk about if anyone else thinks there need to be there need to be party of that there’s it’s an open door you can stay if you’d like to listen so I’m not going to say you have to leave get out I would be more of like the idea of like okay we’re done with the main core of what we need to get done everyone should now know what everyone’s working on they’re in meetings they’re working on this project they’re delayed there’s a Blocker we had success like those things I think are

38:34 like those things I think are communicated at that Team level but once you’re through that like quick translation of information anyone who needs to stay and listen people have just hung out for the rest of the meeting just either they’re working on something else they’re half listening or they leave the meeting move on this is I think also has changed a little bit because of like virtual meetings too I really don’t like standups without cameras on at this point agree just because I feel like I don’t I can’t gauge the attention of other people in the meeting and I just

39:04 other people in the meeting and I just seen the little icon of their name and how that works I’m not sure I love that I can’t go ahead Tommy I’m sorry I know we could talk about cameras I want to throw a wrench into this a bit because right now we’re talking about meetings that I don’t lose sleepover these are all calls that I can jump on but I think there are still status updates and there’s still these types of meetings where you have people in the conversation that know enough to be dangerous but are not part of the team

39:35 dangerous but are not part of the team I’m thinking of calls with the CFO or or calls with like the stakeholders who are not the data team and are the ones that are most likely to throw the conversation off into another Direction and to me this is pretty critical here especially all the things we’re talking about when it comes to who needs to be involved in that call or in that in that conversation how do we stay on objectives and a lot of times it’s easy if you’re the leader of your team or if you’re the PM because everyone’s listening to you but there’s a lot of

40:07 listening to you but there’s a lot of times that we’re in a call or conversation where we’re actually with stakeholders and again they don’t need to know necess know all the nitty-gritty details and they’re gonna have their opinions because they’re a leader they’re an executive and to me I think all the things we’re talking about when you bring up how who needs to be in that call can we kick people out if they don’t need to be there so for me a big part of this is you kind so for me a big part of this is you have to have a firm hand especially of have to have a firm hand especially if the spotlights on you and what

40:37 if the spotlights on you and what by that is it’s not just you’re a part of the conversation everyone’s looking to you to drive the conversation even with a PE even with a stakeholder even with a someone who’s more an executive what I would say to that person is like well we’ll take that offline because that meeting still has to happen yeah even if the executive has keep it in in the context where it’s relevant to the audience right yeah and and that’s a good point like especially if you’re cross pollinating right like

41:07 if you’re cross pollinating right like typically and what is like there’s levels of detail that you have

41:11 there’s levels of detail that you have to get into with different groups especially if you’re traversing the stack of things that you do in an implementation like from hey what are we going to do high level high level all the way down to the needy gr of actually building something I I guess it’s it’s it’s near the end I I think this is an important topic because like in the back of my mind here the question of how many meetings am I invited to that have no

41:41 invited to that have no agenda a lot I would argue I a lot of meetings that are that way yeah and I think I think I think and I’m not even perfect in in this right like you get you get into this habit of like oh okay well we’ve had a conversation or we know what we’re talking about but in in all of those cases we I could still be better around like just throwing in a quick agenda I am typically pretty good about it just because they’re I I don’t have enough time in a day if I can end a meeting early I want to end a meeting

42:12 meeting early I want to end a meeting early and in a lot of the cases where it’s just action who who owns what like we have to we have to figure out a decision and move on like those are great opportunities to end the meeting early it’s not always the intent of the meeting though like a lot of those are hey we need to F we need to sort something out and you’re like everybody’s pondering or looking at you everybody’s pondering or looking at different areas and we’re sorting know different areas and we’re sorting through ideas and figuring out the best one and and some of them are like that but ultimately setting that scope and

42:43 but ultimately setting that scope and just the framework of like why you’re getting people together does so many things just as it relates to like what I was saying when they when they get the the median invite if they’re double or triple booked how important is it for them to be there what decisions are going to be made that they may want to be a part of or like can delegate to somebody else to make so it’s like do I need to attend when you’re there everybody should be there for a reason right and hopefully like a lot I think contextually a lot more of

43:15 lot I think contextually a lot more of our meetings are around decisions or you our meetings are around decisions or needing to get something done or know needing to get something done or alignment to be made you’re always going to have meetings that are presentation mode or whatever that the audience isn’t going to be speaking speaking right there’s a huge audience of people 90% of them don’t need to be there well you you them don’t need to be there well you what I’m saying but in all those know what I’m saying but in all those things I I cannot agree with you more Mike about the virtual world and having cameras on it I and and and even in it is so interesting to me how painfully

43:47 is so interesting to me how painfully how painful it is to keep people consistent yes with their camera so like rather than turn it negative I’ve I’ve actually like gone the opposite where I will I will explicitly call out the people who have their cameras on yep and be like Mike Tommy it is so good to see you guys today thank you for joining my thank you for joining my meeting right I I I look forward to the conversation that we’re going to have today even if there’s six other people on the call

44:17 there’s six other people on the call because they’re all just initials because if we’re if we’re we’re humans right despite the virtual environment working very well like I can’t read you I can’t like I can’t look I can’t look at Tommy or the initials and go Tommy’s not picking up what I’m putting down I need to I need to go hey Tommy like can I can I explain this in a different way right like how many times even in the podcast what’s so great about like yes we’re virtual but if somebody’s talking and my my face goes

44:49 and my my face goes well that’s one of my superpowers amazing and I I would 100% agree with this as well I think this there’s so much verbal in these meetings there’s a lot lot of verbal cues that are happening that are also like you’re picking up on that in the meeting you’re saying things are people really engaging that that really hurts a lot of these things in the the meeting topics there so I would 100% agree with this one I know we have to wrap here we’re getting close on

45:19 have to wrap here we’re getting close on time on this one U I think this is a great topic what I would recommend is for anyone here who’s listening to this podcast go out and read the SS ssbi polar check it out go read this article think about how you run meetings I think in if I had to wrap up or summarize what I’m hearing here things that I think I’ve learned about meetings with don’t come to a meeting to try and make a decision I think keeping your meeting smaller for figuring things out one or two or three people when you’re trying to really hash out an issue and decide what’s going on and what’s being built meetings for me

45:49 and what’s being built meetings for me is a lot about this is the solution you now have 30 minutes to an hour to convince me otherwise that this is not the solution poke holes in let’s let’s it’s for making decisions for me personally has a lot of been whenever I’m having meetings I like to at least include at least a mini agend agenda to be honest I’ll try to get better at this and adding more items for agendas Tommy I think you did a good job of like in the meetings right I think it’s very important at the beginning scope the scope the topics decide if there if there are any

46:19 topics decide if there if there are any decisions that if the types of meetings you gave out Seth were great is this a status meeting are we’re just going to talk about what’s going on is there ual decisions need to be made in this meeting what is the expected outcome of this meeting I think it’s really relevant for for doing this and how many times have you showed up to a meeting and no one does that and you’re like everyone’s in the meeting you’re like okay who’s running this who schedu have have you how many times have you said who scheduled this meeting because you’re like okay take charge let let us know like why why we’re Gathering here so for me I think

46:50 we’re Gathering here so for me I think those are things I’m going to try to be more diligent around those things as well love this article super great article here good good food for thought and I think if nothing else it’s going to improve your data culture or even your business culture in general this is a relevant topic Tommy any final thoughts too I think you wrapped it up perfectly all right Seth any other final thoughts you did I miss something you would would throw in there nope Seth always brings lollipops to all of his meetings no no candy there’s not like little candy there’s I’ve been in

47:20 little candy there’s I’ve been in meetings where everyone M& M someone bring yeah M& M’s or someone brings like all the Starbursts and so that with the beginning of the meeting everyone you hear that well Starburst will be careful then yeah well then it’s like well it was like some piece I remember the remians where someone would bring always a piece of candy in there and everyone so it it it like took the edge off the meeting right you come in there oh great some candy like it’s like so your point Tommy your kids are getting Swedish Fish maybe we should all bring new Swedish Fish to our meetings now and when we get into a meeting we should just dull out a little bit of Swedish Fish and egg go

47:51 little bit of Swedish Fish and egg go from there I like how this came full circle anyways we really appreciate your time I hope this this was an engaging discussion I know everyone of our audience members are in meetings all the time so we know at some level this is impacting you hopefully this is just some good food for thought we don’t have all the answers here we’re not meeting experts maybe maybe we are just because we’ve been in so many of for our careers U but I’m sure there’s other people who have better thoughts around this too but this is just us unpacking meetings and being effective in our meetings and how

48:22 being effective in our meetings and how it helps you that being said we really appreciate your ears we really appreciate your time we know it’s valuable you can do a lot of other things like knitting playing with Legos or catching ball with your kids or whatever whatever the thing you want to do is we really appreciate though that you spend your time with us so if you like this episode we’d really appreciate if You’ recommend to somebody else that you like the episode and you thought the topic was relevant Tommy where else can you find the podcast you can find us in apple Spotify wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating helps us out a ton do you have a

48:52 rating helps us out a ton do you have a question an idea or a topic that you want us to talk about in a future episode head over to powerbi. com channels wow I didn’t I was halfway I’m like I think I could do could do this I’m like that’s one whole breath that’s okay I know Tommy’s full of hot air we know how he works thank you all very much and we’ll

49:22 works thank you all very much and we’ll see you next time [Music]

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