Internal Design – Ep. 302
Mike and Tommy dig into internal design: how to build Power BI/Fabric solutions that are usable, maintainable, and aligned with how your organization actually works.
News & Announcements
- On-premises data gateway February 2024 release | Microsoft Power BI Blog | Microsoft Power BI — We are excited to announce the February release of the on-premises data gateway!
- Fabcon Community Conference — See link for details.
- Internal Design: Success Requires Form and Function | Nightingale — Our first public release of EdWise in summer of 2015 included this mapping functionality.
- PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.
Main Discussion
A good internal BI solution isn’t just a set of reports — it’s a product your organization has to live with. In this episode, Mike and Tommy talk through the practical design choices that make Power BI and Fabric solutions easier to operate over time: clarity of ownership, consistent patterns, and a user experience that’s predictable.
They also discuss the tension between “form” and “function” — how to keep the solution clean and approachable for end users without turning the architecture into something brittle or over-engineered.
Looking Forward
Try this on one real project first: choose one idea from the discussion and apply it to a current report or model. Once it’s stable, write down what changed (and what didn’t) so the lesson sticks.
Episode Transcript
0:29 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measure podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone good morning Mike De Carlo good morning Mike Carlo good morning Seth Bower good morning Tommy Pula call me Rocky that was like the most awkward intro ever all right anyways jumping on in welcome everyone back to the exclusive measure podcast today our main topic is going to be talking about an article from n Nightingale devs I think that’s how you would say that internal design
1:01 would say that internal design success requires Form and Function is the the name of the article TR of the article for today but before we do that let’s do some news anything that has come out recently or any news articles here that we want to open up with here we are there was a new Gateway Post last week with literally zero detail in it so but there’s an update so check it out maybe go grab it Microsoft
1:31 check it out maybe go grab it Microsoft the fabric hack that we should have done that that brings me up to a point here have you have you had a chance to use the the new there’s like a manage connections and Gateway experience now it’s very different we’ve talked about this have you been but have you been using it really recently like experience what was that yeah see we talked about this that you were like oh this is new it’s like no it’s been out for years that yes but I feel like it’s it’s new because so let me say it this way I think there’s
2:02 me say it this way I think there’s some it maybe has been out for a while but I think now that they’ve really shifted away from the Gateway and then connections it’s kind Gateway and then connections it’s like becoming one experience a bit of like becoming one experience a bit and it it makes more sense I think when you start looking at like pipelines and data flows Gen 2 and like all the things in fabric you’re it’s not quite refined yet but I am liking the the idea or the experience of I just create a connection first first and then in the service we can then
2:32 and then in the service we can then share that connection with other users I’m actually really liking the the shared experience on the same connection does that make sense are you talking about the experience if I’m going to create like a new data flow I choose connections like here’s your already saved connections from that dropdown yes it it integrates with that drop down menu but it doesn’t always pick up all the connections that are saved previously but it it changes the experience a little bit when you are connecting like with multiple users to the same connection so you can say okay
3:02 the same connection so you can say okay so Tommy you’re going to log into Google analytics that’s the that’s the permissions we’re going to use to go access the data at Google level now you can give delegated permissions to like Seth who can use that same connection to go get access to that data but then he can then load it into a data flow or whatever he needs to so you can now have multiple people manage that connection even though it’s using like an identity of a someone who set it up which I’m I’m getting more used to that experience now
3:33 getting more used to that experience now and I actually feel like I’m liking it a little bit more now anyways that was just my comment around it feels like Microsoft’s trying to move you a bit more away from the gateways of things and they’re trying to give you more like more direct connections there’s a whole bunch of virtual networks that are showing up and so you can now provide those as direct access to your company as opposed to having to install gateways I think Microsoft’s trying to give you alternatives to just having to spin up gateways everywhere well it’s not just the on- premise Gateway too that’s radically changing they also have the v-net Gateway so
4:04 they also have the v-net Gateway so they’re understanding too that we’re moving away and more organizations are moving away from cloud or from on premise I would agree with that so the v-net Gateway available in the Power Platform and available in powerbi now still limited still not necessarily I think ready for prime time but they want to make that available to as many users and as many organizations as possible yeah I think so I think that’s I think that’s going to be an easier less friction based path to access data man I think it’s heading in the right direction
4:35 direction anyways any other openers or other topics here no that just makes me think do you remember the early stages of powerbi we had odbc two long ago too long ago you can only connect to like Excel files well the old old on promise Gateway maybe worked on on a virtual computer or virtual machine but we had a dedicated PC at office that have the Gateway on it no way no you didn’t yeah we did we did early stages this is early
5:08 we did we did early stages this is early stages that is early stages then there was they they changed the name of it it was personal Gateway and Enterprise Gateway there was two of them yeah and so you had to like pick one and now it’s just like the Gateway and then you have a personal one the amount of knowledge I have about connection strings in odbc that I don’t need anymore amount of wasted information extra space need to keep all right the only other thing I have here for announcements is the Microsoft fabric conference is coming up it’s about a week away it is found at
5:41 it’s about a week away it is found at Azure datac comp. com it runs from March 26th to the 28th if you want to go to a precon you can go to a pre-con the 24th and 25th and there’s a postcon the 29th so go check it out if you want $100 off your ticket to go to that conference use Carlo 100 for $100 off off your tickets excellent and with that jump into our main topic Tommy you found this article give us a quick starting point here and and where you think we should go with this so we’re diving in an article
6:12 with this so we’re diving in an article by christopal Christopher lambath or maybe someone else can help me help with the pronunciation A little French here not that he’s French but French last name and we’re diving into the intricacy of implementing data Vis projects within organizations and there’s a balance between aesthetic designs from the form and the utility and I think a big part of this article that I’m going to dive into and really excited about is we’ve always talked about training around data viz for the authors and for the people
6:43 viz for the authors and for the people building but we haven’t really talked about the data literacy training as a actual component of implementation and there’s a big part of this article is Christopher really pushing towards we need to do adequate training and we need to build up literacy before we can develop or produce any Innovations around data visualization
7:13 organizations so what do you want to discuss here like what’s the yeah so so that’s the that’s the like I said that’s the outline of the article and okay I I felt this was a GameChanger article for me and I’m going to Dive Right In because one of the first things is he’s an information designer cool name name never heard of that before and I wonder if that’s something that’s going to be part of what we do but all the years and all the years that we’ve talked about this on the podcast we’ve done user groups my own training when I do data visualization training it’s
7:44 do data visualization training it’s always around the data analysts the people who are going to be building powerbi we do training for consumers but it’s not data visz training it’s how to use powerbi drill through mechanical in nature like how to make the technology do what you want correct right right but we’ve never said hey one of our implementations or one of the goals that we need to do is build up the literacy of data visualization throughout the organization throughout departments we’ve always assumed I’ve always assumed
8:14 we’ve always assumed I’ve always assumed everyone knows how to build a bar chart or knows what a bar chart is everyone can look at the standard visuals and they can understand them and this very much the article goes in the face of that of no no no you need to make sure before you roll out your tool or your innovation of choice ours powerbi obviously that you need to ensure that you’ve done the proper training and the skill buildup of data Literacy for your
8:44 skill buildup of data Literacy for your organization as a whole this is this is interesting because we’re talking a lot again we’re GNA we’re going to go back into the people portion of this and what do they know and in the article it kind do they know and in the article it outlines three of outlines three I guess what how would I call it he he goes through the article and he says hey look I worked at a place that did a lot of data visualization work we had to start through this project and in doing that project I had to build three was it La lesson one life lesson
9:15 was it La lesson one life lesson two he’s got another life lesson three okay there’s three main life lessons he’s using here like hey these are things that we learned inside the context of this really large data visualization project for like the state of Missouri and so starts with saying you need dat you need to build literacy around data you need to focus on the project and alignment of the project then his last Point here is you need to understand your internal and external audience who are you building this stuff
9:48 audience who are you building this stuff for so I think these are great three principles and I think what you’re talking to or you’re speaking to initially here Tommy is the literacy part right do we have people who one can click the buttons that’s a different not skill that’s that is a part of the skills right and then there is when we show this to you are you able to interpret the information on it is that where you’re going with this th% any comments well that’s good it’s good we have alignment that the article in three bullets is where we’re going
10:18 in three bullets is where we’re going with this conversation I’m just trying to figure out what we’re doing here no no no no it’s good it’s good I’m lost I I do agree I do agree with oh I I think I think I have a at least a good placeholder which flies in the face like Tommy I’m I’m on the same page as you now okay to some to some degree well the so so if we’re talking about the how how you’re engaging with a business around
10:49 business around visualization the the push that you have Tommy around always assuming everyone knows what we’re talking about I think is the Trap here because and and the reason I’m going to hang there a little bit and agree with you is you is [Music] [Music] in more recent experience right there the conversations that you have are are coming from a place that whether
11:19 are are coming from a place that whether you like to or not coming from a place of a lot of knowledge around data and the fact that the vast majority of people have seen a line chart in a bar and Pi pie charts all the things things before before but I think I think we do launch too quickly sometimes into making the assumptions around all of the work behind the scenes that produces that
11:49 behind the scenes that produces that simple visualization so when we start talking about simple Visual visualizations and I think it’s a little bit different for the writer here because an information designer like they are spending an inordinate amount of time to create a un experience or a visualization right whereas in the vast majority of our reporting I think a lot of it is potentially exploratory powerbi is much
12:19 potentially exploratory powerbi is much more it’s interactive I I I don’t know if the example he gives is that Tableau dashboard but I think it falls in that Spectrum of where we’re talking about that Form and Function right which is part of what he’s laying out here and I’ve found some things online right like in that Spectrum where when we’re talking about function is it explanatory are we trying to explain something or is it more exploratory and we’ve talked about that
12:50 exploratory and we’ve talked about that a lot in terms of like what is the best mode of like delivering information and and then you’re talking about form from a static to interactive as well so we have this like powerbi is by nature I think obviously more interactive so we’re trying to create these experiences which we’ve often called web pages and if you think about what goes into web into web design program management project
13:20 design program management project management uiux like tons and tons of conversation around creating a user interface for end users to effectively do something or effectively get information and if we’re if we’re looking at what we build just in a singular way right whether he’s building a single visual or reporting experience the breadth of work for some of the reports that we generate are are we skipping ahead are
13:52 generate are are we skipping ahead are we zooming through a lot of these you we zooming through a lot of these steps in the process to create know steps in the process to create create an issue an underlying issue that might be being like sused out in this article which is we’re we’re predicating a lot are we predicating a lot of that discussion on assumptions because people we assume people know the the data Parts the literacy of visualization
14:22 visualization Etc Mike and if you allow let me lean in because you said you were thrown off a little at the beginning on on that like what in a sense is causing call maybe a little confusion are you saying that you think a lot of organizations already have pretty good data literacy that’s not the issue because no I think I think quite the opposite I don’t think organizations I don’t think organizations have spent a lot of time so I feel like data literacy gets naturally drawn out
14:52 gets naturally drawn out from other people experiencing various visuals and tables and I think this is maybe part of the reason why a lot of people just expect to go to excel dump out some data and then just start playing with it I’ve even seen a very wide range of experience around people who even know how to use pivot tables versus not pivot tables we still have people in Excel that are still just doing data looking at tables of things and doing aggregations of things but no one’s using pivot tables yet so there’s there’s already some I think some very broad knowledge gaps across the
15:23 broad knowledge gaps across the organization just at that level so to to say we can elaborate and provide really rich graphical visualizations that are actually describing what we should be doing what action should be taking I don’t think organizations spend enough money or time to train educate and spend real effort around making sure everyone understands the language of data so like yeah one again one example I’ll go back to this we talked about this a lot is the ibcs standards right so I think that
15:55 the ibcs standards right so I think that is a great place to start and just say hey everyone this is we’re going to set up some standards on how we want to see reporting conveyed and again I think this comes down from a leadership level right leadership has to say this is what I want to see if I’m looking at a report we can all con assume that this is a consistent way to look at information here’s where we are here’s my here’s where we are right now here’s my position here’s my direction here’s where I’m going and so I think that ibcs standard yes it’s not as flashy may not have all the company colors it’s but
16:25 not have all the company colors it’s but it’s really it’s really designed to convey in information about data and I think we’ve talked about this in the past where when we are building visualizations when we are building things for teams we’re just communicating to someone else our ideas about the information but using it in a graphical way that’s what we’re trying to accomplish so as the I don’t know how to say this one but if someone else can’t interpret your visual is it the
16:56 can’t interpret your visual is it the error of the one creating it or is it the error of the one reading it and I would say the error would fall on the side of the one creating the visual they didn’t do a good enough job understanding Their audience or distilling it down in a way that the the consumer of that information can read it I think this is a lot of time that happens also with just regular communicating and talking on projects and teams right I’ll say one thing you’ll hear it Tommy and you’ll be like okay I got it and then I’ll be like well
17:26 okay I got it and then I’ll be like well tell me back what you heard and you tell me back what you heard and it’s totally different like this happens all the time across many different projects you have to have more clearly conveying of information back and forth and this is why again one of the things I like to do in in Consulting engagements is I like to talk but at the same time I like to Dy draw out wire frames and diagrams and little block di just to make sure we’re on the same page like hey you said this starts here and it’s going to go here and the data moves from this way to this way so having that visualization in front of me really helps convey I think the message of how
17:57 helps convey I think the message of how we’re going back and forth between that information transfer I think there’s an argument here and what I took out of this article is we’re talking about that Mike you’re talking about it is when the engine’s already running we already have reports we already have visualizations no now then the no no I’m saying this is all pre-work this is all this is all work the company needs to invest in to educate their team so they all are talking about the same language right yeah the company should be saying we will communicate things or here’s my leadership reports I want this
18:28 here’s my leadership reports I want this done in b cs standards this is what I want like someone needs to say this is what we’re going to do we’ll all educate ourselves we’ll spend time we’ll all get on the same page and how we visually communicate things great now we all can have the same conversation because now we have the same base understanding of what when I give you this chart and highlight these things on there that now makes sense to you so I think it it shortcuts a lot of that extra added communication that’s needed there so I’m not saying this is pre-bake Solutions your description
18:58 pre-bake Solutions your description shortcuts it because it from it’s from the top down like which is a valid scenario but not always like he actually outlines and you can tell in his structure he’s the one pushing from the bottom I would agree with that I’m just saying and that is a yeah and that’s a harder a much harder road to to pass BEC and and I think where even a paragraph given around like the conversation of what are we trying to do and how does it
19:28 are we trying to do and how does it align to OB thing like and then you’re dealing with leaders also speaks to an organization that doesn’t have solid objectives because that shouldn’t be like when you get leadership in leadership should say should be saying okay I’m glad you guys are I’m glad you guys are working if we’re if we’re saying we’re this is a solution to this objective I’m on board how does that align what do we need to do as opposed to determining whether or not this is the objective are we meeting that objective so there is there should be
19:58 objective so there is there should be skin in the game from leadership to Define what it is the problem that we’re solving or or like on a high level and then the group underneath can fill in the details but we should all have alignment and if you don’t then yes this is exactly the problem you’re going to come into where you’re going to have long many meetings as groups up and down the chain trying to solve and make sure that what is being built is actually going to be useful for the business well let me take this one step further because there should be a few keywords
20:28 because there should be a few keywords here that should be a little familiar this is from the article without strategic alignment sound familiar
20:34 strategic alignment sound familiar Innovation may not feel like a fit in the project rightly shuts down without activity alignment Innovation may be well known yet still struggle to be used think about where strategics alignment we’ve talked about this this is from our implementation planning we did a 10 series EP 10 episode series on strategic and implementation yet not one time time in our 10 hours of conversation on implementation was one of the goals or
21:04 implementation was one of the goals or one of the big strategic initiatives data literacy as one of the forefronts of an organization we talked about technology we talked about getting the resources the data analyst but not one point did we ever talk about literacy as a skill for the organization before we begin or as one of the main goals because you can’t you don’t lead with data data literacy like the data like data literacy and data culture like in maybe
21:34 literacy and data culture like in maybe unless you’re saying hypers scoped Pockets right or part of a particular process that we’re we’re doing like I would almost argue like I wonder whether or not the organizations themselves that he’s part of and building build these visualizations if the whole org is doing that thing then yes that like still you’re raising the literacy of individuals throughout that org so like the byproduct of the adoption of reporting and tools you
22:05 reporting and tools you can’t I’d be shocked I’d have to go look back like like a data culture and all of the different areas within there are a byproduct of all of the work that you’re putting in to raise the data literacy and and like create a better data culture I see I want to argue yeah go ahead no I I I feel like I’m the other side here so maybe I think there’s two parts to me to this I’ve always thought of data literacy as a very broad scope
22:38 of data literacy as a very broad scope thing within an organization can I walk into to an area and can we be on the same page and you’re you’re suggesting that as we engage in more hyperfocused Pockets that that has to be part of the convers ation upfront in terms of training people and and raising the bar of like generalized understanding between both groups and I
23:08 understanding between both groups and I don’t disagree with that so it’s an interesting point like and and to to reiterate the reason I don’t disagree with it is like even in your own your own engagements what is what describe the scenario the different scenarios between an engagement that goes pretty well versus the ones that are just amazing yeah so there’s a huge what is
23:39 amazing yeah so there’s a huge what is the difference I think it’s people who understand and organizations who understand either the need for the business intelligence the data visualization or they already have context on what they want to manifest what they want to show exactly exactly so I agree with you in that standpoint because if you take the different between a Soo implementation or engagement it’s the one where you’re bringing everything it’s a one-sided conversation where everybody’s like uhhuh uhhuh yep we need it I have no
24:09 uhhuh uhhuh yep we need it I have no idea what you’re talking about right the best ones the best ones are where you have a subject matter expert or someone who has experience with seeing and and operating and Building Things and having reporting as part of that and can articulate what the specific needs are or what the drivers are for you to plug in and support so how do you get the the soo experience
24:41 so how do you get the the soo experience to a top level one and and I guess I there’s an argument here you’re still doing all the training it’s still one-sided if they don’t have that experience they’re not going to be able to bring it even if you tell them about it right right and I think that’s a huge part of what I’m saying when you think of the simp scenarios are the scenarios where we bring powerbi to an organization we get the data analyst and the resources then there’s that initial moment of frustration or people not using it so now we’re almost playing from behind to get people on board on
25:13 from behind to get people on board on using powerbi then we go into adoption whereas to me in this article there’s a argument to be made to point a brief point that you said Seth is let’s do training and build up the literacy before before we actually launch our powerbi or before we actually launch reporting as a whole at the organization that do have we ensured that there’s alignment around departments around not just being able to look at a bar chart but what they’re
25:43 to look at a bar chart but what they’re going to be measuring do organizations understand and can speak to it before we even launch powerbi it should that be one of the main initiatives to say that we’re ready to have a business intelligence platform form at our organization I like the sound of that now that being said in reality that’s a harder cell there’s a lot of subjective areas there but I think it would be hard but but when you think about if you
26:13 hard but but when you think about if you were to do it that way in in this idealistic scenario man you are setting yourself up for amazing success and probably rapid growth in the long term it in in what ways okay so again let’s go back to the first scenario that normally occurs we want powerbi or executive says we want powerbi top down we get reports but people still either are unsure of what they’re measuring oh just show me sales
26:44 they’re measuring oh just show me sales or marketing or they still have the low data literacy they’re low on the adoption curve so now we’re building and we’re focusing our time on building people up while we’re still trying to build reports so you’re still there’s a lot of I feel like uned work but we’re just we call it work because that’s what we’re used to compared to the scenario where we spend time in the beginning workshopping getting people aligned on what are you going to measure how are you going to look at it what do you do
27:14 you going to look at it what do you do now and ensuring that before we launch our first report that everyone is aligned on their we know their objectives but how they’re going to look at it they can interact with their data and they can speak to what they need that they have that skill as a consumer base not from a data analyst base all of a sudden now you are ahead of the game when you first launch when people start asking for report you’re not dealing with wild west or random requests that
27:45 with wild west or random requests that now we have to filter out you have people aligned on the who the stakeholders are and what they’re asking for and this is that first launch but now the next six months I feel like you are way ahead of the game compared to someone who what we consider work now or our normal adoption is really playing catchup okay so the the the challenge back I would have is in in current engagements if an
28:17 is in in current engagements if an organization comes in and says we have we we hear this great stuff about powerbi we need business intelligence in our our organization we would like you to come in and teach our users how to use this tool what we’re what what I hear you saying is before we start teaching people about the tool we need to teach them how to think
28:48 tool we need to teach them how to think about their own business area a th% that’s so the the thing the thing that I struggle with there there is that is a then are we suggesting that the entirety of that business unit is people that just do what they’re told I’m aligning with you significant I disagree with your point there Tommy that like the business doesn’t know how to do their job like
29:18 doesn’t know how to do their job like they’ve been doing they wouldn’t exist if they didn’t know how to do their job or be able to get some way around the data whether or not you agree with it as a central bi team I think is irrelevant in this conversation they’re asking for technical help around their area and and I yeah go sorry I didn’t mean to interrupt Seth but I think I’m aligning with your direction there on this this point there Seth a little bit no and it’s fine it’s it’s just that is a much like the difference between engagement like great
29:50 between engagement like great engagements and and not great are people who know their business and I think you’re going to struggle mightily as the business intelligence person to try to teach them about their own business like you can teach them some data Concepts that are going to help them digest what it is you’re building if that’s what they’re struggling with but I think that is the byproduct of the report engagement when you’re walking through things but th once again those
30:21 through things but th once again those conversations are significantly different right if you come in your your engagement and you’re saying okay we have data sources here here’s our goal this the the goal is we’re going to get clarity clarity around how many sales are happening in in region in in in these regions and it’s really important for the organization to see how that what that funnel looks like that’s the goal okay where does that data come from okay
30:51 okay where does that data come from okay where like here are the things that we need to do when you’re engaging with that data what are the what is what is the business li like you’re walking them through the steps of data right here are the things we have to do to go get to this point like it questions they have to ask themselves that you need answers requirements right like the Gathering of all of the thing this is the dialogue where this dialogue works is where somebody can articulate to you what
31:22 somebody can articulate to you what exactly it is that they want or when you’re asking questions give you the specific about that there’s a huge difference between someone who understands their business area versus just works in it when you engage there because if they don’t get it it well it that sounds that sounds right well what we do is we let’s look at this report this one does this and this and this versus somebody comes oh well we got to do this we got to
31:54 oh well we got to do this we got to do this this this this this and this is why Tommy we’re going to do that and let me take let me tell you how you need to change your data to make sure that what’s being represented is accurate like you’re not going to train that you can’t get that person who can’t articulate that in a specific business area to be able to articulate those things you’re not the person to do that and I’ll concede that but I want to lean what you just said I’m going to lean on when it comes to the functionality side of it can we teach and this is a
32:25 of it can we teach and this is a question for the both of you can you teach to Consumers the ability to ask for the function or to your point I want a draw through I want that ability to look at my data X Y and Z way can we teach that the ability to speak to that so listening on so if we lean into that area which is I think a lot more where this article go delves yeah which is is walking them through this process but
32:55 walking them through this process but it’s a walkthr it’s not like a I’m going to train you on all the different ways we can do this because creatively speaking I think OB objectively these are two different kinds of projects and engagements especially around the fact that business wants fast results so great I I think rather than say I’m going to adopt this whole strategy and just teach them how to do this before I give them give them anything I’m going to say my process takes a little longer because I’m going
33:27 takes a little longer because I’m going to interject a day in here where I’m taking the opportunity while we’re creating value for the business with a report output I like this that I’m going to teach my teach these people this this skill set that that will speed up this process in the future because that I do agree with if everybody starts thinking about building the requirements for what the outcome is going to be then you get better stuff people are going to be like hey in the last time when we did this
33:57 hey in the last time when we did this creative exercise where we have this question you showed us four different visuals and the different ways we could interact with this on the page and we chose this one I think in this way Tommy right I think this one we should do this way because of this and this and this reason right that I agree with because then you’re you’re iteratively engage like showing people
34:27 iteratively engage like showing people what are create our processes to get from us talking about data and US collecting requirements and delivering a report now like can I say we talked about this in that process yeah maybe right I think what you’re saying is it’s like this highlights that you should be very specific about that part of the engagement where you’re brainstorming and you’re saying like you’re you’re introducing different ways they could
34:57 introducing different ways they could look at the data as opposed to just knowing or saying Guy this is a bar chart yeah yeah and this is the highway I was going off I might have gone off an exit there but this is this is the intention I was trying to say the basic tenants that we know from story Framing and storytelling and data I want to see I I’m looking at x grouped by y filtered by Z the basic tenant of how we do normal data visualization teaching that almost language to users and to the consumers
35:29 language to users and to the consumers on this is how we think this is how we translate the data so when you we have these conversations can we teach that rather than us going to them go look we have this Visual and you can click on this and then it does a drill through and they go great well what what else can I do with it that’s fine rather we have that part of the initiative upfront teaching the language of Storytelling through data viz because we’ve always focused that on analy here’s here’s my point right okay and and you’re bouncing
36:01 point right okay and and you’re bouncing in your in your argument your argument here is almost that it was like the it this this approach and you just landed there again should be way out in adoption strategy land and I it shouldn’t it’s part of the way down granular part of the process because even if you start even if you start whipping this out on a high level okay I’m going to teach a 100 users and like we’re going to I’m going to say here’s this iterative process and this is what we’re going to walk through they’re going to be like because it means nothing to them
36:33 like because it means nothing to them the only like data your point about data literacy has to be tied specifically to something that they care about I would agree and they only care about it when you’re solving that problem in the particular process to solve a problem so this this reinforces my argument from the standpoint that as you iteratively go through through this and lean in and I agree make a pointed effort to lean in in these
37:04 in these moments data literacy is something that incrementally grows over time because you’re giving them the opportunity to say I know my business area but now I’m really thinking about it in a different way that’s going to make an impact not on my not just on my work but on how I can engage in building something that’s scalable for the organization for my team etc etc bring it on back disagree there’s a ging hole here and the idea
37:37 ging hole here and the idea so there is no if there is no desire you can’t teach to it no I that’s the simple what I’m hearing to say is if if there is no desire to to want to improve the answers will be I have no time I don’t want to learn this just give me my report and let me move on which is also what he talks about in in terms of like lack of Engagement from audience of going through all this massive effort sometimes and and I want to be I
38:07 sometimes and and I want to be I think I think you make a really good point there and I want to maybe dovetail maybe my experience on that point as well right so I’ve had some I feel like I’ve had some really good experiences around when we there are there I think there are two kinds of users that come to you with needs for powerb report help and I and I’m going to try this is probably an overgeneralization but I’m just going to do the best I can with the analogy here I feel like there’s an opportunity where we we have potentially like two kinds of needs for data there’s one where is I’m solving a very specific problem I have
38:38 solving a very specific problem I have coming to you with my Excel sheet I go to this thing I show you my process I’m going to go export this data I’m going to make this table I’m going to transform this data this way and I’m going to make this T this output this is what I do every week and then I report out on what the results are so it’s a very it’s it’s not necessarily like a really big strategic d Direction it’s I’m solving a paino that I have right now and this is how I’ve solved that paino so I would maybe for lack of better term call that a short shortterm solution to solve something right that’s
39:09 solution to solve something right that’s one part of the the world here and then I see there’s another realm of this it’s more like long-term solutioning and so when I see long-term solutioning is this is talking more about hey we need this our team is going to regularly review our sales report our team is regularly going to review our the survey results that that people come through like there’s like the it’s a special term you there’s like the it’s a special term what I’m talking about Microsoft know what I’m talking about Microsoft does it all the time it’s the customer satisfaction report satisfaction rating yeah NPS score right yeah so someone’s
39:40 yeah NPS score right yeah so someone’s gonna say look MPS score is a to your point Seth this is a strategic goal of the company we want an NPS score of above this so we’re going to say we’re going to set a standard and we’re going to then report out on it every week or every month and say how are we doing to that did something go wrong did we did we miss the mark on something and how do we correct it because we’re looking at the data and it shows something so again those are more to your point Tommy I think you a lot of what you speak to is like those longer term bigger objectives let’s define the main kpi at
40:12 let’s define the main kpi at the organization level and say what do we care about and then we trickle that down to what you’re saying is in that business unit let’s focus on that that item so I do agree that needs to be there when I think about those two areas of focused on data I feel like there’s another realm here we have inexperienced users and we have more experienced users the inexperienced users do things like I’m going to have a whole bunch of slicers all over the page and there’s this little tiny table in the bottom right hand corner of what I want like that to me seems like in experience I’m
40:43 that to me seems like in experience I’m just trying to make a fancy data dump tool where I get the data out there’s probably lots of lots of visuals on one page right it’s crammed in there you’re like really can’t see anything that’s going on here I’m just trying to I’m just throwing throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks and there’s potentially lots of really large tables this is where they’re like my report’s slow and we’ve got 30 Columns of text Fields all the way across this table and it just
41:07 way across this table and it just Scrolls and Scrolls and Scrolls forever then then I see another realm of this where we start okay people who have gone through that stage and said okay this only added so much value I was able to get value out of it but not as much as I wanted then I think you move into more of this experienced realm where we start talking about okay we’re going to use more different features of the tool like the filter pan and here’s why here’s my reasoning why I would want to use the filter pane for these various reasons you start strategically selecting visuals you start having like a page navigation look this sounds like
41:38 a page navigation look this sounds like we need an overview and then here’s the details and like we have multiple areas of details here’s my MPS table here’s my MPS by region here’s my MPS by person like you start breaking things down in any more granular way so people can do a choose your own Journey a little bit inside their report so you’re focusing more on drill through you’re crafting more of a story you’re thinking through the Journey Through the data to get people to the answers that they want so to me that’s how I feel like there is there’s two
42:09 how I feel like there is there’s two layers we’re talking about here and if you I my experience has been you start solving the short-term problems now you gain trust and you start you start enabling the ability to build that data culture to sets Point around okay now that I now that you and I are on the same page I’ve been able to solve your shortterm super complicated problem and we’re now automating loads and getting everyone’s like wow that helped I liked this this was better than I was doing before and so with that
42:40 I was doing before and so with that comes a Like A Renewed experience or they’re they’re they’re more willing to listen to you to say okay let’s take it a bit further here let’s start talking about user Journey uiux let’s talk about are we even using the right visuals let’s not use big tables let’s focus on what’s really adding value and action to your daily workflow so I feel like to me that’s my that’s my experience we start small we gain trust and we build bigger and I really like I really like
43:11 bigger and I really like I really like that a quick side note if I didn’t get to argue about stuff like this I would die I would die if I didn’t get the opportunity to have these conversations and debate this I would perish like I really like the the two levels because that second scenario that’s a very healthy data culture I would agree right but I don’t think you get there overnight and to your point like I feel like what your I think your arguments are 100% valid Tommy like yes we do need training yes we do need to get people on the on board we do need to push people a bit to be educated in this
43:42 people a bit to be educated in this space but I but what I feel like is not every user is there yet not everyone user has bought into the value that you you are saying that’s going to get there so we’re going to maybe spend a little bit more time with those users just handling some of the small short-term problems problems and then once we’ solve those things potentially we have the opportunity to get their ear to start doing more of these bigger initiatives and and growing that yeah and see where where potentially I don’t align with the article is no organization is going to
44:12 article is no organization is going to take weeks or months well not any business I work in is g to take business and and to me that still speaks of somebody talking at people and not resonating because perfect example I’m going to teach bunch of people some something I’m I’m going to go to a conference and I’m going to have a session on how to how to teach people how to do something what are the types of questions you predominantly get after those sessions or anytime you’re talking
44:44 those sessions or anytime you’re talking for a length of time can I get the slides where can I get the slides that’s one that’s one what’s what’s the second one most frustrating question Laur what are the second type of questions is this recorded I have I have this specific problem I want you to solve that’s true because what they’re trying to take is the technical right thing that you’re talking about or the way to do and apply it to the thing that
45:14 way to do and apply it to the thing that they’re on the hook to deliver yes yes that’s a very true yep I agree and where and why I don’t like the the preach it and then they all get on board thing and where iteration helps is when it’s embedded in the iteration you’re doing what he points out later on around the innov Innovative pieces where he says in bold teammates are much more likely to use innovation if it addresses activities they undertake every day I like that my argument would be yes and also in the
45:46 argument would be yes and also in the basics things that they don’t understand so if you’re coming in and you’re training people how to leverage a tool that includes how to view data in visual form the best way to do that is in that iterative process while you’re solving something for them because then it resonates then it sticks with it I like that point a lot and over time are you going to like are you going to engage in that process and be like hey guys
46:18 that process and be like hey guys there’s this brand new visualization and there’s 10 columns that we have to throw into it and we’re going to modify these 500 properties and it’s going to be amazing no you don’t do that but after a couple iterations with the same team after you’ve got them thinking then you can start to poke then you can start to bring about all of the additional things because you’re building a foundation for them you can’t build a foundation of data literacy throughout an organization
46:48 data literacy throughout an organization by talking at people it there they’re not going to engage unless you make it meaningful for them and that is the only way I’ve ever seen it happen is when we’re bu when we’re walking along with them and engaging them in that step-by-step process because that’s a learning curve that’s not a oh I’m going to take this Monumental leap into understanding my business area so there’s two sides to data literacy knowing your data and knowing
47:18 literacy knowing your data and knowing how to read data my one fear my last Devil’s Advocate side here where I would say this could be very idolised but could be very powerful is if I’m dealing with an organization who has a I’m going to lean in here too just to try to get a little more argument juice yeah so yeah may it may help it works for you so maybe help so if you’re dealing with an organization we’ll go with the assumption that your data culture is we’ll say low is poor the data literacy
47:50 we’ll say low is poor the data literacy is already low how they measure everything and we’ve talked about this a ton so this is not like the rare case at organizations where they have a a hard time or the easy time understanding their data we know this is a hard issue we also have to work with if at the same time I’m trying to get them to accept and feel comfortable with their data and at the same time I have to try to train them and teach them about the components we’re talking about to me that’s a lot
48:21 we’re talking about to me that’s a lot more that’s a lot of overflow for them of being overwhelmed and that’s my one argument towards if I’m trying to teach them not just their data but now we’re also trying to teach them the component of reading data what are they focused on they’re going to be so focused on their own data that they’re going to lose sight they don’t care about the function they’re going to be so focused on their data now if their data is already great and they have the healthy data culture yeah great the function works we can teach the function but you can’t teach both at the same
48:51 but you can’t teach both at the same time you or you can’t work on both at the same time and expect both of them to be fruitful that’s my argument I I don’t agree with that okay all right end of that’s why I I I don’t like it a a the the visualization aspect of things won’t won’t be meaningful without the data the things that we’re teaching people of how to change M Massage form data to make this stuff work is only
49:22 data to make this stuff work is only relevant for the the stuff that works if they know how to do that and it only makes sense because it’s the data that they’re familiar with so all of this to me is inextricably linked if you want to move forward the conceptual first into the process I’m all about that that’s how I start all my stuff now based on our podcast of conceptual Business technical I want you to understand all the concepts maybe that’s where I want to introduce you different ways of visualization but it’s
49:53 different ways of visualization but it’s still very relevant to the business data that you’re familiar with because we’re going to talk about these Concepts a lot in the next several steps right I’m going to lock you guys in we’re going to talk conceptually about the different ways we can visualize stuff we’re going to probably lock on these three right let’s go talk about data what is the specific business logic that we need to apply to this thing okay why do we need that data we need this because this is going to be the x-axis flip back over to
50:23 going to be the x-axis flip back over to one of these three visuals that we’ve chosen all of this is in inter L you don’t teach one without the other from my perspective because you’re going to lose the audience the same way you would if you just spent weeks and months teaching them about visualization techniques because they’re going to be like how does that apply to me I and I think I think in here Tommy too like again it’s a lot of like if you if you are in to your point Seth earlier like I want to I’m going to circle back maybe a couple points here Seth you made a point around when you go to the conference after they ask you for the slides after they ask you what’s
50:54 the slides after they ask you what’s this recorded and can they watch it later then they ask you for hey I have this specific problem can I show you something computer yes we spent many we spent much time after conferences after sessions looking at other people’s machines and saying can we take a look at their stuff and so to to answer to use that as analogy like so I agree with that but this is where I do find again there is these
51:23 I do find again there is these short-term challenges people can’t get their head around to solve it to solve something and that is indicative of if once you solve those problems we’ll have some space to think about the bigger or the next solution so I can’t automate this process I spend so much time doing the same thing all the time over and over again well maybe we should figure out or work with them to say let me show you there’s a better way to automate and I definitely had a number of teams that I’ve been working
51:53 of teams that I’ve been working with that have have taken that like we just we just worked on let’s just automate what you’re doing let’s just get this out of out of this place here let’s let’s build a better Warehouse let’s build some better engineering of data Upstream of you that way when you get it it’s in a shape and ready to go a little bit more easier to consume so in in that regard by doing some of these to your point Tommy like doing some of these low hanging fruits solving those problems it’s it’s a the culture starts with everyone right and
52:23 culture starts with everyone right and someone’s coming in and trying to it maybe it’s the idea of like hey we have a large bucket or and I’m going to pour a little bit of water in it and I’m just one person pouring into it and so the analogy here Tommy if you’re the if you’re the Tommy and you’re coming in it’s like I have all this great stuff we can do we can do all these great KB you’re excited you’re coming in but you’re only a small coffee cup pouring into this large five gallon bucket yes you’ll make an improvement but the improvement’s not very much only when you are able to
52:53 very much only when you are able to garnish other people’s excitement and start getting everyone to invest and pour in then does things start getting filled up you need more than one just source of investment to really move I think the culture of an organization or a department that that’s going to take more than just one person so we prove it with what we’re doing we make a case around why this was valuable and then from there you start seeing the dominoes fall you start seeing people invest in themselves and then they really they start do seeing oh yeah I
53:24 really they start do seeing oh yeah I could see how this could be very beneficial and from there now you’ve got their ear and instead the conversation moves away from again SE what you said at the end of the conference help me solve this problem to I’d like I’d like to have more of a strategic conversation like what what can we do with powerbi what is the art of the possible what should I be thinking about and then they start trusting you and asking bigger questions around look I have I have these reports and we’re not getting much usage on them how do we fix that and provide better support for these
53:54 support for these reports I really like like that and quick PSA if you attend one of my trainings and the first question you ask after is is it recorded I’m thinking bad thoughts so please start with a better question so I’m gonna always ask I’m gonna put my hand up on every session that I’m in in Tommy I’m like no it’s it’s is this recorded can I get the slides and I hate that so much oh no we’ll we offline we’ll talk about that offline I don’t want I I would just before we talk about about offline I would just say
54:24 offline I would just say the more often than not I found it’s not because people weren’t paying attention it’s because the volume of information was so great and it was valuable to them that they want to go back yeah and and listen to you again Tommy over and over again just side concept I appreciate that well if it was anything like me was just waking up like oh crap it’s over but but but Mike I think this will be my
54:54 but Mike I think this will be my my diplomatic ending here Mike I this might be its own topic too well you’re talking about the quick wins I think that’s maybe one of the more underrated or understated features of our adoption where that is and I use this word a bit but either the game CH Game Changer really Catalyst towards getting over that hump or getting over that that that Hill is we talk about quick wins we haven’t focused on I think how powerful they can be and I think to your point just doing a few of them we don’t have
55:25 just doing a few of them we don’t have to solve the boil the ocean or solve everything but just doing a few of those can really be a catalyst of people going oh this is great to your point Seth again me being diplomatic here and you again me being diplomatic here and understanding it’s like oh now I’m know understanding it’s like oh now I’m invested in this now this relates to me yes and I can’t tell you the number of projects we always need projects where people have skin in the game like there needs to be ownership and and without without someone else being able to say ownership and have some ownership and things we’ve been in we’ve been in teams before it’s no fun when the team you’re
55:57 before it’s no fun when the team you’re producing data for has no skin in the game and all they just say is you’re the bi guy you produce me this report this is what I want please just make me more tables please make me more pages and give it to me and so what what is happening is they’re trying to convey to you their need you’re building something that you think is functional and you’re giving it back to them and they use it and there’s no usage it’s like used for a week and then they’re like yep answer my question and move on and now they’re on to another request to you and then this is and this is why I think the self-service Mantra right now is so exciting to companies because they’re
56:27 exciting to companies because they’re like why should we let why should we continue investing in a central team that does all the data we have tools that we can just give the data to the people and let them figure their own problems out so like yeah you want to spend half a day working on a problem and then throw it away the report next week sure eat your beat yourself up go do it if it adds value to your business and you can say you can get your job done fine do it yeah and and they’re not strategically thinking about everything I’m surprised to I’m surprised to hear you say that quick wins thing because like like that is that is the only way I engage with the business we’re always
56:57 engage with the business we’re always first first with any new thing what’s the quick win because I can give you an Insight 10 times faster than I’m going to build something really large on the back end but that’s where my mind is that’s my job as the bi guy to like have a I’m going to give you value and then we’re also going to keep working on this in the back end continually working closing that Gap my CL my closing thoughts about this I do really like that you’re calling this out and I I 100% believe that this should be part of the process how we visualize
57:28 be part of the process how we visualize data is a key success factor in engagement and usefulness of a report I think the thing that comes out of this in terms of like the adoption road map and where it’s still in that project realm but I think calling out that we should take time to lean into the different types of visualization to communicate and talk about the different choices we have and why and maybe you choices we have and why and maybe eventually introd introduce new
58:00 know eventually introd introduce new ways to see data that these people are not familiar with is very worthwhile and should be a part of this engagement with the business because over time the value for everybody I think goes up in in engagement with them as well as when they think about their own data and how to how to build things that are useful for themselves yeah my last thought is I think we talk about can you talk about your data but the other the other question and the other thing we want to
58:31 question and the other thing we want to build is can you talk powerbi just like we’re skilled in other applications hey CC me we all know what that means why can’t that be the case in powerbi like when we’re talking about drill through hey can you work on that app for me the lingo around powerbi is just as important as the lingo around your own business data because the better the organization can talk powerbi the better they’re going to ask you for the right value and the better they’re going to ask you for the right thing now I’m
59:01 ask you for the right thing now I’m going to go with Seth here to a degree from a realistic point of view yeah it’s gonna go with what’s relevant to them and if they have skin in the game so this is something I’m going to be focusing on more and how can I implement this more with my clients earlier in the stage or talking about this more pushing for this more the ability to talk powerbi yeah I like that I think my my key take away from here is healthy data culture is a thing I think focusing on quick wins
59:33 thing I think focusing on quick wins helps everyone get trust and then you build from there it’s it’s it’s not it’s not a it’s not a a oneandone type thing this is a continual growth this is a continual effort and you’re investing in it and again I feel like this is a for me again maybe this is just how I am personality wise I enjoy investing into people and seeing that aha that light bulb that moment moment where they click in like oh that’s cool or oh I didn’t know I could do that and so for me it’s a lot of those I
60:04 so for me it’s a lot of those I like and really enjoy providing those quick wins to people so we can start saying okay now we start understanding what’s going on now we start seeing how to build things and create stuff so I’m going to continue taking away that effort and try to continue to push into those quick wins helping companies deliver things fast so they can gain trust then we have the voice to be able to communicate broader expertise around data quality and visual ations awesome with that we just thank you so much for your time we appreciate you listening to us for this episode we we hope you enjoyed this and if
60:34 we hope you enjoyed this and if nothing else it gave us some more things for you to think about with your data data visualizations and how to work that inside your your company’s data culture hopefully that’ll help and then also maybe how that works for powerbi focus on maybe some more of those quick wins to to deliver to people how to gain their trust and then work with them on bigger projects with that we only ask that you share the podcast with somebody else just let somebody else know you found it valuable share it on LinkedIn social media whatever that is we really appreciate that we feel like
61:04 we really appreciate that we feel like that’s the way to get the word out there for other people to get engaged and find more about our community Tommy where else can you find the podcast you can find us in apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton do you have a question an idea or topic that you want us to talk about in future episode head over to powerbi tips podcast leave leave your name and a great question finally join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation on all
61:34 Central and join the conversation on all of powerbi tips social media channels awesome thank you all very much and we’ll see you next
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