Is an Effective Team Crucial for Success? - Ep. 371

In this episode, Mike, Tommy, and Seth talk through what makes a team effective (and what silently breaks it). They cover how to align on roles and ownership, how to keep communication clear, and how to build habits that help a team deliver consistently.

News & Announcements

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Main Discussion: Is an Effective Team Crucial for Success?

The conversation focuses on the practical side of team effectiveness: setting clear responsibilities, building trust, and creating lightweight processes that keep work moving. The crew shares what they’ve seen work (and fail) in real projects, and how to make collaboration easier for both report builders and stakeholders.

Looking Forward

If your team feels stuck, try tightening the feedback loop: define a clear owner for each deliverable, agree on what “done” means, and set a cadence for review. Small improvements to clarity and communication usually compound faster than adding more tools.

Episode Transcript

0:32 good morning and welcome back to the explicit MERS podcast with Tommy Seth and and Mike good morning everyone happy Tuesday it’s Tuesday oh jeez I don’t even know what day it was yeah oh man when you okay so just FY there’s a couple episodes coming out in the future here that we’ve been recording for and so that throws me really off because I thought yesterday was Tuesday cuz that was the first recording we did for the week so wow okay all right welcome to Tuesday everyone welcome to Tuesday

1:03 Tuesday everyone welcome to Tuesday this this main topic is going to be around is an effective team crucial to the success not sure which success we’re going to talk about here but maybe success of your team your business a deployment of powerbi how does this roll out and maybe maybe we’ll talk less about the I thinking and rolling around my head here I think a crucial team a an effective team is always crucial but maybe how do we we bring people in our team up to that effective state maybe we talk a little bit about that as well so that’ll be our main topic for today but before we

1:34 main topic for today but before we jump in here I just want to touch on some things I’ve been doing a lot of spark related things recently and I can’t tell you how much I’m really enjoying the Spark experiences of things Spark’s been amazing I did a couple I’ve done like three YouTube videos with multiple PMS from the spark team and the stuff that’s coming out the documentation they’re producing how to get work better with spark notebooks it’s really getting robust I’m really liking this experience and one thing that I’ve struggled through here Tommy

2:04 that I’ve struggled through here Tommy maybe you can speak a little bit to this as well co-pilot inside the notebooks is okay I I think I I have found it to be fairly meaningful it has written some sample functions for me I’m so here’s what I’m here here’s what I’m prompting with right I’m prompting with python I’m prompting inside a notebook and I’m asking it to give me examples of hey can you can you create an example class for me with a function right so how do I how do I make the

2:34 right so how do I how do I make the structure so to me it’s more like proving the structure of the Python to help me build hey I’m writing a function and I want it to do this and then asking it for a function name and say the input is a string and then here’s what I want and it does a decent job of giving me the example one thing I feel like it’s not doing as good a job on is being contextually aware of the text I have inside my notebook and highlighting my text and then writing a question around that particular part of text like this function doesn’t work or hey I need to rename these columns in

3:05 hey I need to rename these columns in this data frame that’s being generated here can you help me with that like and it feels like I’m not it’s not quite smart enough to get that there in lie of this I want to move to vs code because I really like the vs code co-pilot so this is this here let’s stop there Tommy what do you think what’s your struggles with coil and I’m gonna try not to be too fired up even though I am pretty fired up this morning so she left the baseball out and or like this ball and she got ran over so now we

3:35 this ball and she got ran over so now we can’t play catch and I’m really upset so I’m G have one I see four Baseballs in the back wall right there why don’t you play c play c those this is not St lot so I’m not gonna let that affect today it’s gonna affect okay so the co-pilot in the service is great for very generic queries like you said and I I call them queries where you’re asking a question can I give me a data frame or like very generic but the power and I think the effectiveness of the co-pilots in vs code or some of the other

4:06 in vs code or some of the other extensions is that contextual conversation like this is not what I was looking for I want a this type of data type can you change that and the copile vs code Cruiser is phenomenal too okay I’ve heard a lot about Cruiser dude I’m telling you man put Cruiser right in vs code I’ve been seeing all these shorts of like if you want to write an app if you want to build code Cruiser is the thing to use oh Cruiser is the way AG go you you get your wallet out and you throw it at it so oh my God I’m sure they’ll be happy to take my

4:36 God I’m sure they’ll be happy to take my money so but the difference is both those co-pilots or those assistants we’ll call them are excellent at two things understand the context if your code in that page or file like if it’s a Jupiter notebook or it’s a python file or whatever it may be and having a a conversation so one of the things that they both do and I really say this for the copile and GitHub and the pil Cruiser is that’s not what I wanted I’m actually looking for two columns that do X goes oh my

5:07 X goes oh my mistake in the service treats every query really has separate it doesn’t really look at the previous part of your conversation your point the context and okay you really do need that because you okay you really do need that because the expectation with any prompt is know the expectation with any prompt is you’re not going to get it right the first time yes and that’s where you really need those those co- come so that’s where the service is really falling apart to your point Mike yeah the they have two extensions for a

5:38 the they have two extensions for a fabric called synaps which still love okay I’m a little like we’re in fabric now and I’m using the synapse connector to connect I get it like maybe we could rename it a little bit let’s update it like it’s the it’s called synaps for fabric yeah I love it okay all right well we tried so use the remote one and this is the other thing I found out if I use use the on pre I don’t not on premise but there’s two extensions there’s synapse for fabric remote if yep if you’re on vs code Dev

6:09 remote if yep if you’re on vs code Dev yes or there’s this just synaps for code okay that one I don’t use I actually use I use that one to install it actually installs like a condo service and actually will connect to your local python environment but then I use the synapse remote one on my vs code that’s already installed and it actually works really well okay so that’s what that’s one I haven’t been able to successfully get mine to work yet on my computer yet but what what I think I want is I think I want the ability to say okay I’m in a notebook in the fabric service

6:41 notebook in the fabric service there’s a little button at the top that says open either nvs code for the web or open in VSS code for desktop I would be fine with either one as long as either one would work but what I want to do is I want to bring the notebook to my VSS code experience get the full richness of co-pilot GitHub co-pilot because I pay for that one get that one and then use that and then I want to run the commands as as if they were on the remote server so like be connect back to the fabric spark environment and then utilize that to run so that was something I would

7:11 to run so that was something I would like to do I haven’t been able to successfully get it working on my PC so I have to call you out for some help there Tommy and get me started on that one the best process that I’ve really done now if I especially if I’m trying to go back to lak houses is I have a sample part of the data I do the Transformations with co-pilot on vs code like all things I want to do with data frame and Spark and then when I’m ready to push it back I basically upload that notebook because everything I really want to accomplish is accomplished except for pushing it back to a lake house okay or pushing as a Delta table can I can I so I love that I’m

7:43 table can I can I so I love that I’m gonna have to come back to it but I want to Pivot one additional step away here and I’m just curious your gentleman’s opinions on this I don’t know Tommy do you you you don’t wish a ton up data bricks but Seth you use a ton of data bricks wherever you’re at did you guys see the announcement from data bricks recently I think it was in the last month about this aibi dashboard and embedding did you see this come out I think it was thrown my way I haven’t dug too much into it where I got stuck last week was their solution to

8:15 stuck last week was their solution to publish publish powerbi oh with the like the like the a published to powerbi theel Icon that’s inside of it’s a uni catalog it’s a uni catalog you can hit publish to PBI and it comes into Catal and yes I is it not for you is that what you’re struggling with or is it just no I was just not sorry not stuck stuck into the documentation around it oh you’re reading that part of yeah yeah okay remember how we I don’t know if we talked about this in the podcast but we said look Microsoft has got the corner on the market on like the dashboarding

8:46 on the market on like the dashboarding side of things and like data bricks is like the source of the engineering and I don’t know who I don’t know if we I think we brought up the podcast but like no this yeah this we were talking about data mesh right like so business how the business user interacts with the data and up to this point data bricks has been well I’m going to say p engineering Point based on what you’re alluding to more engineering versus correct Microsoft having that frontend experience that the business is very well used to and yes engag with okay so

9:17 well used to and yes engag with okay so I feel there’s a shift or some competition coming to Market here with this aibi dashboard thing so one thing I’ll not here Community just check it out out sorry I just read theat Donald Parish you’re saying we’re saying VSS code not BS code vs code is what I write every day all day long vs code is what I used to write with notebooks my bad I’m going to put an article in here I I think I see a datab bricks aibi dashboard being

9:47 see a datab bricks aibi dashboard being embedded into a SharePoint page with from the datab bricks blog so what the what I think is happening here is datab Brick is now allowing users to be able to create a report a dashboard visuals on a page and they’re iframing it and they’re letting you drop the iframe into other applications now seems sounds seems familiar seems really well other tools do this too this is not like a this is not like a wow look how much this is creative you

10:15 a wow look how much this is creative you a wow look how much this is creative data bricks caught on what parbi is know data bricks caught on what parbi is doing here but if I’m thinking about the volumes of data that are embedded into Data bricks or things that data bricks has right it does make sense for them to put a little bit of a a UI or a front-facing visual side of things on top of of things I I don’t know if it’s going to be thoroughly competitive with powerbi not sure we have to do some testing and see what happens here but this is a very interesting Direction shift to me because I think up until this point datab bricks has been really focused on data engineering pipelines spark the whole experience around that

10:46 spark the whole experience around that that side of things and now we’re starting to see like the squl side getting a lot more love in data bricks and now we’re starting to see dashboards appear in different places and I’m I’ve already had requests from customers to say hey what would it be like if we could embed this next to my power bar reports in all in one app what does that look like so stay tuned maybe some news coming out here pretty soon we’re doing some heavy investigations on this but I I think this is something to take note of for those of you who are datab bricks

11:16 of for those of you who are datab bricks customers or who are looking at things there may be something here with this data bricks bi embedding dashboard things that might be of some use to you just want to point that out but I feel like there’s been a shift in Market a shift in some messaging here that I think is worthy to take note of just thought I would throw it out there okay enough of the news and article things I think we’re pretty good there any other thoughts or things Tommy for a Beat from the street here or any other news items you thought were relevant I think it’s pretty good I I I I do feel we’ll

11:46 pretty good I I I I do feel we’ll revisit the data bricks as that gets a little more Polished in the future yeah I I sorry there’s so many random thoughts in my head I there’s a that’s interesting to me Tommy your thing about using different AIS inside vs code is very interesting to me like the fact that I can just pull in AI cursor or chat TPT I I did have a funny moment I was driving the car with the family and we were writing a birthday card for somebody and I needed a little bit of help getting like what’s the wording what should I put in the card so I kept asking I asked I started with Siri I said hey Siri can you oh I should

12:16 Siri I said hey Siri can you oh I should have said that now she’s gonna answer me ah she’s listening so I said hey hey computer like give me a give me a joke or something to say in this card and it just basically made a card with the number of the birth person’s age in in my phone I’m like this this is totally use like they’re not even on the planet at this point so I had to open up chat GPT and I was having a full like voice text conversation with it and I was shocked I was like okay I knew we could T I knew you could type to it but

12:46 could T I knew you could type to it but I wasn’t playing with the whole voice to AI thing back and forth I would ask it a prompt it would come back with a response in and voice it back to me and then I would say no that’s not what I wanted can you change it a little bit can you add this to it no that that that joke was corny do another one oh I’m sorry I’ll I’ll make another joke here that that was too much like a dad joke make it a bit more serious like like like it was crazy how easy it was to talk with the thing and I was like I did not I did not understand this like I was flored when I saw this okay

13:17 like I was flored when I saw this okay you you made me think of two quick things and then we’ll jump on so that voice feature you need to go to your custom instructions in chat gbt and tell it when I’m speaking voice I want you to say and you actually write that until I’m ready when I’m done I’m G to say the word done so what happens is you can have this all the dude you’re promp your prompt level is like your next level on prompting I’m what happens in this is you have this conversation like listen chat TBT I was thinking about doing this for a project you’re

13:47 about doing this for a project you’re and then you can go off this long spiel and you say done it goes and immediately starts talking back and all of a sudden you’re like this better than talking on a podcast so so this this is what you do in your in your spare time office all day long leads to the next part my wife came down and I was working late is the voice is The Voice on the AI a woman’s voice this is where I see this go that’s that’s not that not that not that please call me you chat GPT please call me master Tommy please hello Tommy yeah I you could do

14:19 please hello Tommy yeah I you could do that too but she’s like what what are you working on and I’m like well I’m working on a few Integrations with AI and in a semantic model she’s like no really what are you doing I’m like you want me explain everything she’s like yes I was like all right I have a local model it’s called Old llama but there’s actually two different kinds one’s from meta the others from Microsoft’s called fi I have both those models connected to a semantic model and I’m trying to actually see if they can structure it better and she’s looking at me going never mind upstairs the words we use even just

14:51 mind upstairs the words we use even just talking with just the words we Ed anymore if you if you were someone who didn’t understand like data bricks Spark runtime mention semantic model just the words we use Dax like people are like are who are you talking about like what is going on here and it’s funny because my kids are now picking up on some of the technical words that I’m using and stuff and it’s just becoming more common language at our house and so they’ll talk to their friends like what does your dad do oh he works on Dax and semantic models their kids are like what is

15:21 kids are like what is that he sits in the basement all day and works on AI and and everyone’s like what is what is he do what so it’s just it’s funny when the language the words we use I was just doing an interview with some of the PM team and they were talking about I think it it was gluten and it was this is one that’s this is the one that was like it’s an open source project of like making The Spark engine run faster it was and this is the one yeah there just all these ter I’m like they’re using terms on Vector

15:52 like they’re using terms on Vector gluten all these different things the dag that’s in there like there all these terms you’re like what in the world are we talking about anyways very interesting things it’s a weird it’s a weird world we live in these days and I think it’s fun from a data perspective I think there’s a lot of opportunity and things I think are moving really fast at this point which has been exciting at at this this point maybe maybe maybe we got a couple years actually of like it it calming down do you think it will calm down for a bit and then it will ramp up again no I’m saying I think we got that oh we got

16:24 I’m saying I think we got that oh we got fabric showed up and now it’s just many more years of drinking from a fire well if we could get some of the features out of preview that would be very that would make me very happy that’s that’s the thing I’m working on right now let’s get a couple let’s get a couple more things Spanish Q& A please let’s land that feature that’s good it’s good enough let’s just land it it’s good enough in test for three years let’s let’s go all right enough of that let’s jump into our main topic today so just jump into the main topic thanks for humoring me for the the random items

16:54 for humoring me for the the random items we talked about in the beginning here that was fun all right let’s let’s talk about jump into our topic Tommy give us some frame here let’s let’s talk about how do we evaluate our team how do we make our team more effective is an effective team crucial to Our Success of our business our department what we’re doing and how do we maybe improve that what can what techniques or things can we utilized to help make that that team become more effective no absolutely Mike and this is one of the things I really do love about our conversations because we just started off with AI and all the technical things

17:25 off with AI and all the technical things and data bricks but I think all of us are very acutely aware that it takes more than one person it takes more than one just one very good skill set or technology to bring something to be and I think we’ll even Define today what success actually means to your point earlier so I think that would be good there’s a lot of moving parts and what we do and yeah some of us are Consultants but we’ve also worked on a team and anytime we go into new projects Seth is in the depth of this of picking his team and making sure they’re all

17:55 his team and making sure they’re all working the dep the the depths let’s not let’s not put Seth in the death of this let’s just understands me okay all right she understands me right in the thick of it so you didn’t say done yeah he’s trying Tommy that actually is a whole fictitious story Tommy actually made that whole thing up just so that he could say done to us and he could let he could have more time to talk and tell us when he’s I’m done now think about what he’s trying to say

18:25 think about what he’s trying to say yeah but truly like what the working inner workings of a team both from culture the skill sets the expectations can really make or break a central bi team or anyone working in technology and especially in the data space so I think some of the conversations that we want to have today and really want to dive into is what is a bi team what makes that successful and let’s actually Define the success of a bi team is at just the individuals feeling that they success is that the

18:56 feeling that they success is that the projects that been that were based on them what does a bi team really look like in terms of the inner workings both from I think Technical and the soft skills and how do we actually if you were to take a year from now with a single team how do we actually gauge that’s been successful and there’s a lot of things here to unpack all right I’m going to lean on some of the books I’ve been reading a little bit in some of this topic and I’d love to hear just GNA kind topic and I’d love to hear just GNA throw out some things a lot of my of throw out some things a lot of my view probably around this topic will come from a book I just recently read

19:27 come from a book I just recently read which was atomic haboc if you haven’t read Atomic habits highly recommend it very well done I didn’t read it I went through the whole audio book like twice now but really enjoying the the lessons that I’m learning from that book and then the other one I’m I’m working through right now I’m not done so I gotta be very clear my wife tells me you can’t recommend books you haven’t finished I’m like well I got about like a third of the way through I feel I kind third of the way through I feel I know the gist of what’s going on like of know the gist of what’s going on like it’s helping me already amazing if it helps me for the first 30% why wouldn’t

19:57 helps me for the first 30% why wouldn’t it help me for the last 60% I don’t like she’s like you can’t do that so have to be very clear explicitly explicitly calling out here I’ve only read the first bit of the book but I’m also reading scaling people as well and I feel like I didn’t make the connection when you brought up the topic Tommy in in the notes here but I feel like part of this is around dealing with scaling people and scaling leaders in your company and how do you really work with them to like give them the skills to succeed where you need them to be for the next the next level are my thoughts there Seth what do

20:28 level are my thoughts there Seth what do you think you think yeah I I think I I I agree with you I I

20:33 yeah I I think I I I agree with you I I like what’s being said so far how how we take it in different directions will be interesting I I think where I land first first is when I look at the crucial aspects of any person or team right like what are what are the things that define success right like that that people would look at and say yep these are the things that these are the crit ceria by which I measure things and I think where I land first is because because having those

21:05 first is because because having those factors gives me the guide posts at least mentally to walk through like what are how would I improve people what things do I have to improve upon like how do I skill people up or am am I doing is this team operating the way we would want it to and like the first the first thing I guess I I see is are you or is the team delivering value to the business right and and we talk a lot about that in in as it relates to like

21:35 about that in in as it relates to like revenue or operational efficiencies and that’s predominantly where I think business intelligence teams can make a pretty significant impact in impact in organizations and and having that as the guidepost I think also a couple factors that play into that are f that are taking ownership of thing like projects from start to finish as well as following processes

22:07 as well as following processes that are designed to help the team versus like doing things in a silo or on their own I’ll stop there I like those Silo siloed teams at some level sometimes you’re going to have I I feel like I’ve observed like there were times when teams will just be they’re not given enough support there’s not enough new users to to get everything done like there’s going to be times where I think there’s like portions of companies that are going to have to just figure things out in a small team and just get things

22:37 out in a small team and just get things done integrating that across the business I think is a really hard a hard thing to do and I think maybe if we talk about things that are effective here I think I think back to a comment that was made in one of Rob col’s books he’s just talking about if we took all the code if we worked in Excel sheet and there’s some code you’re writing or VBA macro or some code to build an application if you told someone just to type out the code AS is it would take you a week or two a month right depending on how much code you’re writing it’s just fine but when you put people together on a project and the

23:08 people together on a project and the project has to be communicated across different teams and across other people that project takes months to complete because there’s so much communication happening across those different teams and what do you need and what do you need and like so the code the output is is minimal the amount of the the product that you end up with is not that big a deal but the journey to get there the the levels the amount of communication that has to occur in order to bring you back to that that answer is immense and so having I think one of the things

23:39 and so having I think one of the things I would say around one of the things that are critical to your team being successful is good communication skills from your team internally but also good communication skills to your team to other teams across the business how to how to voice concerns how to voice when you need more help from another team CU they’re not delivering something cuz those other there sometimes if you’re working in one team in a in a silo you have control you can do what you got to do and and the the the the the Reliance is on your shoulders but

24:09 the Reliance is on your shoulders but what happens when you’re trying to get data from that other team that’s not helping the data’s unclean they said it was it delays things right so I think there’s there’s this idea of like being able to com communicate those challenges up to leadership and across those other teams in a way that helps everyone win I really liked your point also their set is like at the end of the day the business can deliver if you can deliver as a business for the business to get the answers they need that’s where the value comes from I I would say that’s half the the story there because

24:39 that’s half the the story there because when when we actually think about this I’ll say that the high level definition of how would you actually define success here it can’t just be that we’re finishing and exceeding projects on time or before time because you’re dealing with people so there’s really three aspects of a successful team from a longevity point of view it’s going to be the value the individual feels the value the team feels as a whole and the value they’re bringing to the business right you can deliver things on time but have complete burnout on that team or one

25:10 complete burnout on that team or one person is carrying the load but the project was done so when you’re dealing with a team you’re really dealing with those three areas of expectations and and I’ll go to the simple definition if you’re ask my definition of success is exceed meeting or Andor exceeding expectations a successful team has to really manage and carefully manage those three the individuals the team as a whole and the business’s expectations of what they’re meant to succeed because

25:40 what they’re meant to succeed because again you do one project one person carries the load the team was successful because they finished the project and the business was successful because they gave the value but how long can that team actually last so if you’re the manager or if you’re just part of that team there the three aspects again are the IND individual’s value or feeling that value do they feel burnout do they feel like they’re part of the team whatever their expectations are is the team feeling like they’re delivering the right value again ultimately does that actually provide value to the

26:10 actually provide value to the business yeah I think those are really good points because and it leads to what I team term te the Team Dynamics right and lots to cover in there but as as somebody who manages people like that is extremely important because if you have you have different types of personalities but you also have different types of skill sets and to your point Tommy like if if a team has

26:42 your point Tommy like if if a team has an overachiever or a high achieving individual right and the the rest of the team or you have a couple of those and you have some support people as well and or additional ones that like still have growth opportunities M what what ends up happening is if other members of the team aren’t carrying your weight like you were describing the burden falls on those who are achieving more or owning like feel responsible for

27:13 more or owning like feel responsible for the delivery of things and that will Cascade all the way up to people who are like the team leaders or the managers right like the failings of individuals to achieve something is going to put load on somebody else and at like so there’s that Dynamic but also at the same time unrealistic expectations of the business right can also have a detrimental effect on the team dynamic as far as like their

27:43 team dynamic as far as like their they’re finding value in the work that they’re doing to your point because you burn out right so there has to be an EB and flow also of like how fast you can burn a team and then when you need to dial it back a little bit and and re relax or push back on delivering certain things because they need to catch their breath a little bit I like your points there I was I was when you made your comment Tommy around meet or exceed expectations as

28:13 around meet or exceed expectations as far as the team goes I resonated with that one one of the thing one of the thoughts that came into my mind is do we even have a clear definition of what the expectations are from the business at times and I think sometimes I feel like we walk into situations where the business expect too much doesn’t really understand what to expect or underestimates the value like I think that in this data engineering and getting things prepped for models and getting things out the door in poweray reports I think there’s an an underestimation of how much effort it takes to really do that shaping of data to get it out the door clean ready to go

28:45 to get it out the door clean ready to go for semantic models so I think sometimes the business comes in with expectations that are a bit out of out of proportion and also I I would argue when you bring me a brand new data source yes I can know how long it would take me to AB that new data source but there are teams that if you’ve done something for the first time it’s very difficult to to estimate something for the first time your you just acquired a company there’s this new company coming in you’re going to have to rip out Tableau and put in something powerbi related like have you done that before no can you make a plan yes you can but I think there’s going to

29:16 yes you can but I think there’s going to be just more error in your solution just because you haven’t done it before so I I I really like this expectation setting I think this is very important to helping your team be successful not necessarily the team being effective and now it’s just a matter of what does success look like what what does that definition of done mean yeah and I think unique for us too in our space at least if you’re just dealing in the powerbi world that’s it’s pretty hard from the collaboration side too because I think a

29:47 collaboration side too because I think a lot of us are used to working streamlined where I do the semantic model I do the dexs I do the report building I’ve been on teams where it was all split where someone was in charge of the marketing data someone was in charge sales data someone was in charge of operations and finance data and you had very it was the same team but it was very siloed we had times where we were trying to split things up and it’s very difficult for us in our world to do like front end back end type of development

30:17 front end back end type of development because that doesn’t really exist so when you’re to you assess point when you’re trying to like lighten the load for one person well again the the skill set are not as established as maybe a normal development team or we’re working on a pan like we’re in marketing and we’re working on promotional material where the collaboration becomes a lot easier because the tools allow it our tools are still not really set up for

30:44 tools are still not really set up for collaboration in a very streamlined approach I want to I want to entertain John ky’s comment in the thread here on the chat thread John’s talking about I I really like that I’m really interested see you guys think about this unpacking this idea here John’s talking about basically reading some books how to lead one of the books he found was leading Geeks which is interesting I’ll put that on my my area but he says it helps them focus on four main key areas for their success and then he talks about as bi

31:14 and then he talks about as bi practitioners learn data Ops because if you learn data Ops as a team you focus more on the process to get good things out the door and you’re less you’re less reliant on the heroes those one high achiever or a couple High achiever individuals to get things done and push it out because you have a process that helps you catch issues earlier or that’s how I’m interpreting that comment there what are your guys thoughts on this I like this comment I I agree having good processes is

31:46 mean I I agree having good processes is essential for having you an effective team right because they they there are things that everyone on the team needs to do to work together really well and efficiently don’t like without that are you are you putting undue burden on on folks for just finding things or like yeah it’s harder to develop Solutions I think I agree but I don’t think that removes the the challenge

32:18 removes the the challenge between High Achievers and those that have opportunities to grow that’s probably true I I I would completely agree with that without saying too much more yeah you you’re still dealing with again we’re in an industry where we don’t have these very set like I’m a developer 17b and that actually means something with levels where you’re going to have a lot of situations where if you have a team of 10 more than likely and this is not always the case but more than likely

32:48 always the case but more than likely there’s one or two people who know everything about everything and it’s very easy to task most of things on them because they do it all so it’s like one tommmy all the hard stuff anything with an API or some large angle that’s Tommy’s that’s Tommy’s job Tommy a lot of red eyes a lot of rede knights U but but truly though too like I think a difficult part even with the data Ops data Ops is you got to gauge the skill set but I think you need to consistently do that because again this is not like building

33:19 because again this is not like building a bridge and what by that is the the methodology of building a bridge does not rapidly change every year but our Tech technology and our skills do so how am I gauging consistently my team and where people are strong as the technolog is also always changing that’s interesting you see that Tommy I was a mechanical engineer pre in a previous life and I I built preast concrete structures right so not Bridges per se but I was building out like parking

33:50 but I was building out like parking structures those big those big warehous like the Amazon shipping Warehouse has those big concrete walls I was helping design those putting the windows in the right spot there’s all kinds of like steel you put inside this big concrete panel they make in a sh in a shipyard or a concrete yard completely off and they ship no no oh no you’re actually 100% right the science of those things is like very well known like hey if you’re going to have rebar in this pillar it’s going to hold this load you need to have this number of Loops in this section this the thickness is this it’s it’s like a science that was one

34:20 it’s like a science that was one of the reasons why I was like this was interesting I enjoyed learning it and doing the work there but I moved on because I was like well at the end of the day like there’s nothing creative here there’s nothing new like I liked being part of the creative side of things like creating something from nothing or being Innovative and designing so I think I I really fell into a good position when I went into like research and development because okay we have the laws of physics we have to obey but we have to build this product under cost this certain way that’s when I really think I started finding my my calling because I liked creating things and to your point the

34:52 creating things and to your point the the pre-cast concrete structure thing it’s it’s basically a mathematical formula now and that wasn’t there was not a lot of that new things you’re like wow they’ve just made a brand new concrete mix and you it changes everything you’ve ever done it’s it’s not like that revolutionary it’s it’s very known and consistent and for us that happens every month yeah true who keeps moving the cheese I think I think also what the the value of process in teams right if we’re talking about the effectiveness and and teams that are successful versus not is

35:24 teams that are successful versus not is is they have good processes because you’re creating consistent outcomes that are high quality and that’s what processes do right they’re also I think the the the guide posts for or by which expectations can be set right if I’ve I’ve always I’ve always as The more I’ve I’ve managed L like teams and larger teams right I is I I’m a firm believer

35:54 teams right I is I I’m a firm believer like I can’t no matter how many things I say say if I haven’t if I haven’t written down somewhere or I don’t have a clear process that somebody can reference all the time when they’re doing their job because we can’t we can’t we’re not infinite sources of like oh I’m going to remember everything all the time right so do I have that somewhere where somebody can reference like oh man yeah this is the area of business I’m plugging into here’s what I like I know we have a checklist for that right or oh I know I need to go do this this thing

36:25 I know I need to go do this this thing right and and that way the I’m setting the team up for success for themselves to be able to like create a quality outcome because they can follow this repeated pattern that worked successfully let me let me ask you guys two questions a little little based off I think just putting things in writing and this a little off just process for two people who really are running full-fledged teams right now outside of compensation

36:55 right now outside of compensation because I I I don’t even want to touch that because that’s still part of it but I remember the times I was happiest on a team I think they were the two areas I’d be willing to work late hours if I felt that there’s value in what I was doing or I was growing in my skill set where the team or my manager or the group I was with we were all growing in something like hey now I know how to do X and but also too on the other side of the coin I wanted that balance too where I did feel resentment at times

37:25 too where I did feel resentment at times when I I might have been doing a b of the work to your point how important over the long run is that to juggle where for the whole team as a whole you have to put into perspective both how much hours in the workload but also the value that they’re getting out of that is that a big juggle from a team on a consistent basis or is that something that’s more reviewed on maybe like a quarterly basis I daily well not like and I’m I’m

37:55 daily well not like and I’m I’m joking but not really but those two those two points like think about think about what what drives you those two things if you understand the levels of effort that you’re putting in you understand the outcomes of what that’s doing for the business and or Sub in hey while I’m on the job I’m also growing and learning new things I think those are two of the key factors of anybody being satisfied

38:26 key factors of anybody being satisfied with what they’re doing right I want to know that what I’m doing is making a difference right Andor I want to feel like I’m learning and grow growing as an individual without those two things I think yeah you you you quickly fall into lands where people are just showing up for a paycheck right or it’s the next thing on the bullet list to do and this is somebody’s telling me I have to get this stuff out the door so I think as as a a leader you absolutely need to draw those lines for your

38:57 need to draw those lines for your individ like your folks and that’s where organizational standards like ogms or okrs are extremely helpful right because as long as the visibility traces all the way up to like hey I know that my efforts are helping us solve this problem or and wherever possible like I think drawing in the hey when we do this we’re going to carve off like a week’s worth of time every month that somebody does like has to do this manual process like with that going to do for

39:28 process like with that going to do for that person is they can now dedicate a bnch bunch more time on you dedicate a bnch bunch more time on areas over here or like the efforts know areas over here or like the efforts that we build is going to drive revenue and commercial team thinks it’s going to come in by this much whatever and then you can retro and and look at like what are the impacts that that project or work has done for the organization so I think that’s especially in the technology Realms something that is skipped over too often by business teams is not relaying that

39:58 by business teams is not relaying that information backwards and saying hey like rather than give give give give give the the return of hey did you guys know that like we we just signed this like major deal because of the work you guys did congratulations right we couldn’t have done it without all of your hard work that’s a really good point I like tying tying your work back to successes I think it’s really important as as I’ve been learning how to again this is why I don’t know if I’ve talk pagas before but I I think

40:29 I’ve talk pagas before but I I think I’ve mentioned it before i’ I’ve had someone mentoring me and gave me the phrase walk to the end or walk as far as you can see and then you get there you can see further it was a very interesting statement to me but one of these things that I’m working on a lot right now Seth is is around this it’s like how do you how do you find people that and what motivates them how do you like publicly encouraging them as a team like hey this was a good win we had some challenge here someone really stepped at the plate and just knocked of the park I think it’s really important that us as Leaders

41:00 it’s really important that us as Leaders you think about what you like when you had good leaders what did they do they they they sat down they listened they took some time to help guide you they gave you opportunity there was kind they gave you opportunity there was maybe a direction or a path you went of maybe a direction or a path you went down with them and say here’s where I’m at right now and I think to your point Seth identifying areas of growth opportunity for your employees and then giving them ample time to like rise to that occation I think that’s a really healthy thing to do as a leader trying to bring your team along so I’m trying to learn more of those things and figure out how can

41:30 and figure out how can I do those things because I’ve I’ve realized myself is finite I can only do so much yeah we have to start delegating and we have to start trusting our team members to do what they’ve got to do and just crush it and and as long as the I think a lot of this is around expectations setting right if we understand understand the expectations on how long we think things should take or how long what we need to be having done or the quality things are coming out the door the checklists that we need to follow setting that up front helps everyone come at the end with a better result I feel like I

42:00 with a better result I feel like I failed when I asked for something and what I get is not what I wanted I feel like it’s a failure on me to not communicate the right requirements around what I need and what I have found is if I continue to focus on better I guess this is the the article from sqlbi to some degree ask better questions get better answers give better requirements get better results right maybe to some effect there too yeah I think I think one of the other areas that’s

42:30 that’s probably just something that I will never solve but is one of one of the I think I think key keys to having a successful team is create and and one that delivers and one that is super effective is creating an environment where people understand that our our efforts have positive or negative impacts however that that however there’s

43:01 however that that however there’s this ecosystem or this environment of mistakes happen we’re here to learn we’re here to grow we’re here to accomplish something together and I the the challenge in there is I think a lot that it’s it’s very difficult to get individuals on teams to be transparent all the time in terms of like the the successes the failures the struggles the challenges that they’re having because

43:31 challenges that they’re having because what what what a lot of the times happens and it’s like one of the things I I lead with new new people on the team all the time is like what is the definition of failure right what is their definition because my definition of failure of a project or something at work revolves around being put in a position that I can’t make a decision that’s that is without without severe imp impacts meaning hey you were supposed to do this project but you

44:01 supposed to do this project but you waited until the last hour of when you’re supposed to deliver it to me to tell me that you ran into a problem and it’s going to require three more weeks right I can’t do anything with that oh right so the failure is you recognized that a week ago and we didn’t have the conversation then so that like Communications should could start to happen are there Ripple effects in business absolutely right like you don’t there’s not an impact but the failure was in communicating or being vulnerable

44:32 was in communicating or being vulnerable enough to believe that your leader or your teammate like would understand that hey you screwed up hey there’s a problem hey like I’m stuck right and rather than having an uncomfortable conversation in the moment that something could be like handled or dealt with you’re you’re pushing it down the road to an inevitable outcome which is you haven’t delivered right and you needed to but now nothing can be done about it or you can’t course correct as easily without

45:02 can’t course correct as easily without bigger impacts and and to me like saying that is the failure is we’re all going to screw up right like but if we know that there’s a problem actions can be taken to like try to remediate it or at least communicate to the business that there’s an impact that’s that’s incoming so that we can absorb it versus an expectation right that something’s going to happen whether that’s in our own team

45:32 to happen whether that’s in our own team or in a wider audience that all of the sudden it’s like wow everybody’s got to shift their perspective and now we’re understanding that there’s this significant delay and we didn’t know about it till when we were supposed to produce said thing right and I think that that alone is probably one of like opening that up and stretching it is or or driving for it it Le least in the team itself and with leaders is one of the key things that I I still haven’t

46:03 the key things that I I still haven’t found the success for because I think many people come into or have teams where that level of transparency is not something that is rewarded it’s it’s it’s actually the reverse where you are put down for it and and I think the differentiation between teams that are successful and not like that’s a huge overriding factor is can like can I do I feel like I’m I’m able to make a mistake and US adjust from it or do I feel that

46:34 and US adjust from it or do I feel that like I at all costs I have to get this done and then I’m trying I’m trying I’m trying it’s not going to happen and then I have to deliver the bad news at the end of the day right and I think to to me this this scenario or like layout of that transparency is something that I strive for and I think that is extremely important for teams to to adopt to be extremely successful and I

47:04 adopt to be extremely successful and I think you’re rare with that too Seth where yeah unfortunately that’s not that if you find that person or that team I if you find that person or that team you found the Unicorn because mean you found the Unicorn because you’re right that that communication side is is hard to find Mike I don’t know if you had anything on that point because that made me think as you were having the conversation one I think essential part of a team and actually as you’re talking made me think about were what I call like minor and major roles because it’s one thing to have the communication with my boss that and that

47:36 communication with my boss that and that top down dialogue and that top down communication but another essential part of the team is the conversation sideways with my teammates themselves with my colleagues who are on the same level and one thing I think is really essential for I think dialogue and communication but also for the team as a whole is what I call like minor and major roles okay and and what I’ll call like a major role is you’re the database developer it’s more established in the organization you’re known for

48:06 in the organization you’re known for this but a minor role is something that is almost unb bespoken or was not necessarily part of your title but you’re just either really good at this or you’re help the project manager around a lot of the projects where people can come to you it’s like hey do you this data set or hey you worked with this person before can you help me out here so I think a really important part if we have any team and as as goes exactly with the communication side is do I know

48:38 with the communication side is do I know who to go to for a particular situation again not just my boss but the person next to my left and the person to my right I think as I’ve been scaling my teams out it’s been a good idea to like have one sometimes you become as a leader everyone comes to you with like hey I can’t figure this out hey can I bounce something off you hey can I use your use your brain for something I think to your point here talking about major and minor roles around the team like each person on your team hey so and so is really good on spark and data engineering if if anyone just I

49:10 engineering if if anyone just I think part of the part of the part of the thing I do in stand-ups is try just to make sure everyone knows what everyone else knows like to some degree make sure hey if you’re having troubles on this area it sounds like a problem that so and so has solved before can you schedule like an hour with them on your time go ask them them about their solution just talk about the solution together and then they can have the conversation if there’s still questions come back and let’s then discuss maybe architecturally or have engage me and figure out how because that way I can delegate those learnings or those lessons across different team members and I’m

49:42 different team members and I’m finding the more you have those team members on projects for longer the more they learn they figure out patterns it becomes more efficient it it becomes more repeatable and so I have python questions I have notbook questions this thing doesn’t work I’m getting these weird errors I know the person on our team to go to ask that question and so I’m not coming to them like without a very clear question it’s teaching your team really refine the question really make sure what you don’t know come to them with that clear question because odds are if

50:13 clear question because odds are if you’re spending an hour or two or more on a big challenge someone else might already know the answer in like five minutes it could be something simple you’re missing the amount of time I’ve just spent fixing my own problems just by talking it through with somebody is a is a sounding no yeah I knew the answer I just needed to talk it through with somebody and as I’m going through the talking through it the solution Works itself out and that almost becomes a minor goals too where I really like that where where Seth could come in and say like hey I want you to be our our

50:45 say like hey I want you to be our our feature person in powerbi to know everything about bookmarks so because I want people to come to you for that it’s not going to be part of their titles right it’s not going to be bks yeah the bookmarks are right but but that almost becomes something like one I would feel something like a new goal to achieve where it’s not like hey you did really well and the business did well that only gets you so far after so long when you’ve been working 60 hours yeah honestly like as it’s like hey the business is doing great because of you everyone got their bonuses you’re

51:13 you everyone got their bonuses you’re like great I haven’t slept where’s my bonus do I get double bonus now like I know R my kids in anymore kind know R my kids in anymore thing and but there’s a point though of thing and but there’s a point though too where all of a sudden you’re tasked with like I want you to be this person someone believes in you and when you have each of these people on the team well then one one person doesn’t feel like they have to do everything yes and then two you’re actually having that dialogue Mike I love that idea of in those standups you’re like you’re almost doing the Remember the Titans everyone will spend an hour a day with each

51:45 will spend an hour a day with each person you will get to know the data developer thing and but to to your cross-pollinating skills because if I want more people to work in pipelines and I’ve got to give people time to do that this is one of the things about scaling people that I’ve been learning is if you’re going to ask more of people don’t assume you can hire within and be like hey this person’s good at this thing they want more responsibility we push them into leadership or management roles without the opportunity of giving them ample time like study them up give them some time like I think there’s definitely

52:16 time like I think there’s definitely some real investment like you have to sit one-on-one with them and and have some really good like here’s our goals here’s some things I’ve struggled with let’s read some stuff together let’s let’s let’s build those skills work on those individuals to really bring in those skills there because I think that really helps long term now you can equip them and then hire them and move them internally I think the the the gal who was doing scaling people she worked at Google and she worked at when she was a very it was in a very early

52:46 she was a very it was in a very early stage she had led a lot of like very large initiatives across the company grew teams from millions of dollars of Revenue to billions of dollars of Revenue scaling things like that that takes a lot of lot of effort and I think sometimes people saying oh yeah you just build software you just make tons of money like that’s not how it works it’s it’s less about the technology it’s maybe more about the culture and the people that means so much at that Team level yeah and I think you you nailed one of those things too like regular cadences of one-on ones

53:16 like regular cadences of one-on ones like gives employees direct opportunities to chat with their manager with their leader right and and I I think helps in the transparency of convers ations right like if if you’re building a personal rapport with individuals on your team as opposed to just talking to people in the context of the team while that’s important it’s more like collaboration trying to get the team to engage more so than a leader to an employee and and I guess the the other two points I’d make as we’re

53:48 the other two points I’d make as we’re well coming on time pretty quick quickly here is having having a clear framework from from a these These are are points from a leader perspective in building building like teams that are H have employees that are happy healthy and successful driving success right like this ecosystem is not just delivery it’s people it’s different backgrounds it’s a whole lot of things that need to be like worked on

54:20 of things that need to be like worked on to create right like the the quality outcomes that we would want and that’s understanding how people are growing right so what is like nine boxing is is one of those terms I don’t know if you guys have used it before where hey as somebody comes in they’re in a quadrant and and the expectation is that they are going to need a lot of assistance they’re going to need a lot of training they’re going to need a lot of like Hands-On development that’s going to take away from senior leaders of the team but what is the expectation of like where they move what should they

54:50 of like where they move what should they know like how are the growth patterns and and what’s really interesting is when you do that in the framework of like seeing how people come in and acclimate to the team like I I think that’s one of the most interesting things as as a leader and a manager is to you get a perspective that individual contributors don’t which is there are there are vast differences between the types of team members some pick up in like a week and they’re contributing by week two others it takes

55:20 contributing by week two others it takes two months right and then they can deliver is is there a a a better or worse like well obviously if somebody can ramp up better like that’s fantastic but like you’re measuring people with like the the skills and and things that they need to deliver in a framework that gives you opportunities to push for areas of growth and opportunity right and then it’s only be when you’re pushing and they keep consistently hitting roadblocks or challenges that

55:50 hitting roadblocks or challenges that they can’t surpass that keeps them in a particular box right or keeps them in a particular area that hey are they a valuable contributor maybe right are they consistent are they inconsistent and you need to like work on them not being part of the team because it’s not and I think that is something that people are afraid to do is sometimes they’re are not good fits and when you don’t do something about those not good fits it it it create it creates an atmosphere where

56:21 create it creates an atmosphere where others in the team know that they’re far beyond they’re performing and their team memb is not and because they’re not they’re having to do more work and and that that creates I I think opportunities for teams to not start to not gel as as closely and will affect the the success of that team long term the last point I want to make good point I I think having that framework also a as we were talking about risk and

56:51 a as we were talking about risk and failure one of the scariest things I’ve scary I but most rewarding is when you’re pushing individuals into higher levels you’re assuming more risk as a leader because you would be putting them in positions that they could fail right so if you’re trying to take the training wheels off of people from especially as you go we talked about like senior the senior like how do I Elevate somebody to senior right you’re taking out the here’s exactly what I want you to do

57:21 here’s exactly what I want you to do right here’s the task here’s this here’s the step by step go do this thing and you’re opening up more responsibility for those individuals and with greater responsibility Right comes better better things for the individual better things for the team but a whole number of things can go wrong right in in those opportunities that you’re providing or trying to push somebody to to grow because the the reward the risk reward is greater

57:51 the reward the risk reward is greater because usually you’re elevating and and putting more trust in somebody they’re going to accomplish what you need them to without the training wheels right and and I think those are some of the most challenging but also some of the most rewarding within a team that individuals can engage with so I think we’re about the time where we’re going to hit some final thoughts here so I’m going to wrap a final thought here around this one and just say an effective team is invaluable for Success it’s it’s going to be part of what you

58:21 it’s it’s going to be part of what you need to do I think a lot of what you do in this bi space is we build successful teams make sure we have the skills that we want on the team I think it is I if an effective team is there how you get an effective team I think there’s a lot of Education out there reading people have studyed this people work in businesses I and I feel like we are in a very exciting world where the technology is Shifting quickly part of the effective process is having clear expectations seems like that’s been a very clear topic from this conversation working on being transparent with your with your team

58:52 transparent with your with your team what the goals are and aligning those to basically corporate objectives so I I think there’s some really good takeaways for me in this one has been around really defining what’s what success looks like having good personal conversations with the team members and making sure we have the right skills in the team so really good topic today fun interesting topic not so much about like features or specifically things but I really appreciate the the the I guess it’s the wandering conversation the wandering conversation that went away from the super

59:22 that went away from the super technology and more about the the people and the process side of things this is a really good super use thoughts Tom any final thoughts no I think you guys put it the nail on the head so we’re going to get our cliches down sure I like I said I love these conversations because we could talk about technology all day but my goodness you cannot get away with some of these human skills and The Human Condition how essential that is what we do so awesome well with that we just really say we appreciate your time we know your your day is valuable your ears are being pulled

59:53 your ears are being pulled many different ways between music and other things you want to learn or or leverage so we hope that your exercise your run whatever you’re doing right now to complete out this boring hour of time doing hopefully something productive I hope we’ve been able to tickle your ears about some interesting conversation around the people the process and the teams that you work on thank you very much for chat jumping in today I really appreciate the comments that were there very neat thought thoughtful comments as well so I really appreciate you chat jumping in and giving out book recommendations and other thoughts around this topic really really appreciate that as well with that if you

60:24 appreciate that as well with that if you like this conversation if you like what you’re hear here please share with somebody else we really appreciate that and we thank you very much for all your viewership and helping move the podcast forward Tommy where else can you find the podcast you can find us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton you have a question an idea or topic that you want us to talk about in future episode head over to power. tip podcast leave your name and a great question and finally join us live every Tuesday and

60:55 finally join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation all of powerbi tips social media channels thank you all very much and we’ll see you next time

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