Low User Adoption Rates – Ep. 264

Low adoption usually isn’t caused by a single ‘bad report’—it’s caused by unclear success criteria, weak feedback loops, and teams measuring the wrong signals after launch.

Ep. 264 walks through a practical way to define adoption for analytics work and how to connect usage, semantic model reuse, and enablement to real business outcomes.

News & Announcements

• Brent Dykes on measuring analytics adoption — A crisp framework for turning ‘adoption’ into concrete, testable metrics (and a reminder to define success before you build dashboards).
• Submit a topic idea (Explicit Measures Podcast) — Add your question to the mailbag so we can tackle it in a future episode.
• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and explore the full Explicit Measures back catalog.
• Power BI Theme Generator (Tips+) — Standardize visuals across authors so reports feel cohesive and easier to trust as more teams adopt Power BI.

Main Discussion

The core point: adoption is an outcome, not a feature. If you don’t define what ‘good’ looks like (and what behaviors you’re trying to create), you’ll end up shipping dashboards and calling the launch the finish line.

Here are the takeaways worth stealing:

• Start with the ‘why’ and the audience. Adoption is different for executives vs analysts vs frontline operators—measure the behavior you actually want.
• Pair engagement with impact. Track usage, but also track what it replaced (manual Excel extracts, ad-hoc SQL requests, recurring meetings).
• Measure the semantic model, not just the report. A well-designed model powering multiple thin reports is a stronger adoption signal than any single report’s view count.
• Make success measurable and visible. Treat adoption like an OKR: pick 1–3 key results (repeat usage, breadth of audience, decision cadence) and review them regularly.
• Design for progression. New users won’t understand filter context immediately—plan training, office hours, and ‘guided’ report UX that reduces cognitive load.
• Governance is a force multiplier when it’s lightweight. Ownership, naming, endorsement, and a curated catalog help people find ‘the right thing’ fast.
• Close the loop. When users see their feedback land in the next iteration, they come back—and adoption becomes a habit instead of a campaign.

Looking Forward

Pick one adoption lever to improve next (discoverability, trust, or repeat usage) and build a small monthly rhythm—measure it, review it, and iterate.

Episode Transcript

0:29 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measure podcast with Tommy Seth and and Mike hello everyone welcome back to the show Good morning my friends has your week felt like it’s a very long week I was talking to my team on Tuesday saying happy Friday I’m like wait a minute I’m way off it was been a long week already yeah it’s there’s there’s been a lot of a lot of work and nonwork stress this week yeah yeah one

1:02 nonwork stress this week yeah yeah one thing that has stressed me out things in the world one thing that has stressed me out right now that is driving me absolutely Bonkers is I just got a new phone when you get a new phone and you have all this wonderful MFA crap set up that secures everything you want I’ve been trying to return the phone for over two weeks now and I keep having issues with this stupid MFA crap that lets you you have to transfer it from one phone to another it’s like impossible it’s like it you have to like

1:33 impossible it’s like it you have to like log into every single thing delete the MFA reset it up and if you have any kind MFA reset it up and if you have any like personal accounts like it’s of like personal accounts like it’s going like for whatever reason the Enterprise version of MFA works way better than like the Microsoft other personalized versions because every time I get into these personalized accounts like whatever the email address is at outlook. com dog gone it it like throws a conniption won’t let you do it you can’t turn I’m like this is why people won’t use MFA because you can’t make it easy

2:04 use MFA because you can’t make it easy for me to migrate between from one phone to the new phone like you should make this easy Microsoft or you should make it at least easy for me to reestablish my new QR code with the new phone I get I get that you don’t want to make it super easy because then people can be like oh we hack that and we’ll figure out how to relink phones no problem but on the other hand I’m thinking of myself dog GN it this is way too hard and it should be simpler super would be nice if it was simpler everything else on my phone migrates from the old phone to the new

2:34 migrates from the old phone to the new phone most everything else is just fine I can submit my password I can put my username in it sometimes it even remembers like what my username was I just got to like go to my key Vault thing and pull in the password and drop it in dog G it because they’re switching to the password list is that that the passwordless is junk like they’re trying to do it it let me say it this way the P the password list stuff works incredibly well when you have the Microsoft authenticator app on your phone and it’s

3:06 authenticator app on your phone and it’s already set up like if you when you get it set up the first time no problem when you have passwordless turned on and you’re trying to move between phones a nightmare I hate it well it’s probably the same thing too where if you remember when the Apple pay first came out like oh this is so cool except no one else had it at any store and the first time it actually was really helpful was when we were in Europe Mike because everyone had Apple pay oh totally it’s the best thing ever we’re so far behind here in the US yeah yeah so it’s the same thing as like the

3:37 so it’s the same thing as like the password list works if the person who’s doing it supports it yeah exactly right it’s not it’s not just that though too because what was it this week I got some notification I was digging around like and my in in MFA or in some of the Microsoft login things it had registered my old devices but I’d never i’ never never disconnected it from my old phone which is now a long time ago but it like it’s not like a vulnerability it’s just I I disconnected from authenticator so

4:10 I I disconnected from authenticator so I hate changing passwords which is why I have really long passwords so my it it organization pinged me after work hours and I didn’t respond right away and they’re like did you did you like disconnect an account or something and I’m like I don’t understand what that means like no I don’t know what you’re talking about reset my password they just reset it and I was like oh hell no why they reset it be because I had removed my old device from authenticator

4:41 removed my old device from authenticator so like they’re Monitor and everything it’s good but like now I had to go reset my password I was like dang it yeah it’s annoying like and yeah there’s a whole bunch of things that go along with this one we are in the 21st century or 22nd century I don’t know what century we’re in a century in which phones do everything for us why can’t we stink and authenticate with our face on every single like this should be just like it should just be a thing it should just be like bioc scan my face get this thing over with everything’s signed in

5:11 thing over with everything’s signed in the way I want to be signed in other people can’t get into my phone without my face now now your children have learned though your children have learned like when they want to get into your phone they’re like Dad I need to do this thing on your phone I’m like okay and they shoved the phone in my face and it unlocks and I’m like okay that’s not that’s not really what I like it’s so so fast now I don’t even have time to like hide my face away from the phone like they just get it so quick I’m like well so much for that security at least my children know how to get into my phone now doesn’t what doesn’t make sense to me while we’re while we’re just taking Thursday morning to for to gripe and sometimes we need to

5:42 to for to gripe and sometimes we need to do this and I feel this is one of this is our therapy session what speaking of security what absolutely doesn’t make sense to me and it is some of I’m not going to name names but it it is is bananas companies top companies several times in the last SE couple months have sent me emails that say you have to click this link to go do something otherwise an

6:12 link to go do something otherwise an account is going something wrong is going to happen yeah don’t send me those links I’m never going to click that no no but but here’s the problem I never click those links no I will never click them a number one scam what are the scam things yes make urgency yes you’re something bad’s going to happen yes for you to click links so I’m like okay I’m just going to log into my account on their website and there’s nothing there’s no messic yes there’s no there’s no way I can do the thing so I what I’ve done is not done anything and had

6:43 done is not done anything and had accounts shut off and I’m sitting there going you’ve got to be kidding me the only way that I can get to do what I want to do is click a link I’m already not comfortable clicking because you’re forcing me to say like if you’re going to give me an email you should give it to me a not as a notification in my account blows my mind blows my mind because legit both of them were legit but I’m like stressing hardcore like look at the URL is it from the right person is it is it trustworthy like

7:14 person is it is it trustworthy like spent days before I would click this thing because I will not it I’m so ingrained and like you don’t you don’t do that stuff and yet these companies are shooting these emails into your inbox with no other way to do it like dude stop not stop it if you’re going to send me an email saying I have to go to an account let me log into my account separately and take care of and address the issue please go to please go to our yeah please go to our website here’s the here’s the root URL of our website or whatever whatever like here’s please go

7:45 whatever whatever like here’s please go to our website this is our website your web address go here and log in and you’ll see a message that says do these things like that’s it the messaging should be consistent yes 100% agree with that you have to do these things please log into your account great no problem I’ll go do that yeah oh my goodness that to all right well riveting after we’ve had this riveting early morning conversation I’m sure there’s all one of you hanging around for this conversation this is a maybe everyone else is struggling with security to I don’t know

8:16 struggling with security to I don’t know but anyways apparently we are our main topic for today will be talking around user adoption and talking about other analytics or or business analytic projects and a great article from Brent dkes author of effective data storytelling and just he has a really good graphic even in his little LinkedIn post here as well so I’ll I’ll quickly put this into the chat window as well for those who want to follow along in the article it’s also in the description of this video as well and you should be able to see that as well additionally

8:46 be able to see that as well additionally just talking through what does adoption look like and how do you measure it before we get into that topic though I do think there’s a couple quick other actually powerbi related announcements we should at least touch on here as opposed to just randomly talking about things so Tommy you sent me a couple really amazing links here one of them is coming from a tool that I have not played with admittedly I have not played with enough to actually be comfortable with it yet but I think it’s Gard or lucky yeah

9:17 lucky yeah luckylucky Gard brle ble I got that all wrong a lot of letters that weren’t there so sorry about the name but your tool is amazing so I got to definitely promote this one ‘s a there’s a vs code Gallery it’s a a new release of the powerbi VSS code extension and basically it’s a window into apis a window into the power. com service you can do more things now you can go look at your models in timle format you can configure scale out on

9:49 format you can configure scale out on top of data sets you can refresh a data set you can edit the timle inside the tool wow there’s a lot of really rich features for the developer that have come out in this tool have you played with it Tommy has played with it Tommy’s got it yeah yeah Tommy give me

10:05 Tommy’s got it yeah yeah Tommy give me the skinny what’s going on so it really is it’s not like necessarily the full dashboard was awfully close and to have that in vs code he there we’re getting really close because you can actually connect any data set with a notebook and he has actually just right click right now right now it’s just a just a like a rest request but I’m sure we could just you could easily change that to python but he gives you the ID everything copied paste ready to go some of you can look at all your other artifacts but and you can see what

10:36 other artifacts but and you can see what pipelines are going on it’s it’s it’s insane it’s it’s on par with azure’s Studio extension It’s amazing And the fact that it’s been built by the community like like you don’t have this wasn’t this wasn’t a Microsoft built thing it’s rock solid it’s an amazing tool with lots of contributed contributions from gard it’s a I love it I I think it’s so cool so anyways I’m super excited to use it I’m going to get my hands wet or hands dirty or whatever you want to call it I’m going to use the tool I’m going to get in I’m going to figure it out I’m going to give

11:06 going to figure it out I’m going to give some demos probably of this I think Tommy this needs another whole learning series all by itself of like how to use this tool effectively what can it do and why would I care about this tool it’s just it makes a ton of sense to just understand this thing super cool yeah I was trying to see how many downloads it has the fact that I could just get the TM the timle oh yeah it already has almost 10, 000 downloads so he’s got about another 250 downloads to get above 10, 000 so let’s get this thing above

11:37 10, 000 so let’s get this thing above 10, 000 today we’re not going to give any more amazing podcast until you download this tool yeah right just kidding we’re GNA move on any other other announcements here maybe a call out or a shout out to ignite is happening pretty soon here is it already in line online right now it’s online everything’s books for me what I I I don’t want to go back but there’s another really cool feature with the vs code you can also see all your refreshes for a data set but yeah Microsoft ignite’s coming up and through sorry

12:08 ignite’s coming up and through sorry this is really cool and what an easier way to see it so Microsoft ignite is I believe starting on the 15th of November 14th 14 14th in Seattle 14th through the 17th if it’s online it’s 15th and 16th the live opening is well Microsoft main opening is on the 15th I Microsoft main opening is on the 15th look at the look at the title of it mean look at the look at the title of it though experience AI transformation in action online from anywhere like it’s not even called it like the main selling point is not even ignite it’s like look

12:40 point is not even ignite it’s like look we’re doing AI like the main Center focus here a few Microsoft bi sessions on Wednesday there is the int introducing semantic models in powerbi which we could talk about that where I was like what’s that and like oh oh it’s it’s just a data model it’s the same thing we’ve been using all I know yeah something I’m actually familiar with let’s change the marketing so it sounds snazzy yeah is actually what that’s gonna make my life so much

13:10 what that’s gonna make my life so much better I’ve been doing a training with some Enterprise teams and they’ve been in snowflakes they’re like no data set no no not your data set that’s true data set it does need a different term I would AG I’m all for this I’m all for this so yeah by the way everyone in case you didn’t know data sets are now semantic models so they’ve been all along it’s now the formal term for it opposed to just thing called data set yeah and I think that’s the only powerbi session everything else is fabric build and manage Enterprise scale data there’s the upgrading your data State

13:42 there’s the upgrading your data State and then I think there I I believe I found all them because everything else is co-pilot nothing about powerbi and co-pilot maybe we’ll get maybe we’ll finally get some love around co-pilot come on have this Happ just announced or pointed out that pass past data Community Summit is also the same week in Seattle November 14th through the oh I heard about this yeah the the the conference timing of things have been incredibly in amazing like they’re

14:12 incredibly in amazing like they’re literally like let’s just put all the conferences on the same day at the same time so no one can go to anything let’s do that that’s a great idea yeah you do that that’s a great idea yeah if we only have this thing called know if we only have this thing called like the internet idea where you could like coordinate or like publish when your event is occurring like that would be be amazing anyways have you been playing too much Minecraft that sounds like one of the my kids have it’s exactly that that’s it sounds like villager villager the fact that you did it and the fact that I picked up on

14:42 did it and the fact that I picked up on that that Tommy your kids are not old enough yet I have no idea but wait until your kids start playing Minecraft there’s going to be all kinds of weird noises at your house you’re going to be hearing here pretty shortly shortly wait oh my gosh that’s ridiculous all right right because this is an amazing podcast and you are really thrilled about learning and listening here let’s actually talk about some real things that talk about data and the the reporting and Analysis here Tommy give us maybe a bit of an overview of what is Brent talking about

15:13 overview of what is Brent talking about in his article what what do we should what should we pull out of here and start conversing about so great great at LinkedIn post I I’m amazed that people just do this in post yeah I’m going to quickly be the the the narrator here Tommy quickly looks at his computer feverishly looking at the article trying to read quickly as to what was what are the main topics Tommy zooms over to chat GPT and enters the URL of the page to say please summarize this article for the podcast okay Tommy take it away I beat you to it I spent an hour this morning getting trying to trying to get a better

15:44 trying to trying to get a better prompt for the agenda so I realized this is stupid I can do this that’s funny so honestly we’ve talked about adoption a ton that’s one I think one of our big things and is always will be but apparently there’s a we’ve seen actually some articles about cdos Chief data officers and just in general where adoptions not really meeting the expectations and part of that too is like where are we measuring success but there a lot there’s a lot of that

16:14 there a lot there’s a lot of that disatisfaction once things are implemented or not necessarily the organization but very much on the users and we always focus and I think that’s why I love our conversation is powerbi and everything you is always focus on the the technology all the sessions is get this realtime streaming event but again what’s the implementation of that for the person and how does it actually affect them so for from the post point of view it’s like how are we deeming success and to me that’s we can talk about that for

16:45 to me that’s we can talk about that for eight eight hours cool how do we measure success Tommy this is this is the question of the hour then because this is not going to be an easy answer what does SU what would success look like for you on your reports what does that look like well I don’t think it’s just the reports though right it’s I I think selling it a bit short if you said okay we can start there because we’re saying adoption but we can go there okay all right so let’s let’s talk about adoption so I like the

17:16 let’s talk about adoption so I like the term of adoption where I struggle with this is so there’s there’s two terms that I I think that are relevant here like I want people that are going to be engaged with my report or I want adoption of the report those are nice terms and words to say but the core of me says how do I measure that what’s the measurement of adoption what’s the measurement of engagement how does that look so maybe that’s where I would take part of my question from this is yes I would agree wholeheartedly those

17:47 yes I would agree wholeheartedly those are two things we absolutely want I got you but how do I measure it so that’s where that’s where my mind goes it’s interesting this kind goes it’s interesting this goes back to our conversation about of goes back to our conversation about the ordering food like data driven teams where I think a lot of our mindset it’s a part of the mindset where were we we do move on too quickly with projects or reports like oh we published it we’re done and I think that’s because of the I don’t want to say the culture but if we’re laughing so hard at that video of

18:19 we’re laughing so hard at that video of we’re on this time crunch with no budget we’re going to be in this place where yeah we’re just sending food out like a restaurant and then we’re moving on to whatever else needs to get made where there is not a lot of time for us and something I’ve said a bunch of times to provide actual intelligence using our own words to the users where we’re like here’s a report here’s some buttons you can click I have other data things to build and when it comes to engagement right like it

18:51 comes to engagement right like it because part of what we were doing if we’re actually going to spend the time there is that postmortem and that’s not just how to use the report that really would be there in a in a perfect world but I I’m going to start right there in terms of when we’re gonna say success it’s yeah the usage is obviously the one of the easiest metrics but in terms of what would be ideal I think there’s need to be more on the other side of the completion so so let me unpack

19:22 completion so so let me unpack what you’re saying there a little bit I’m going to read a little bit more into the article here basically the the scenario here are the set is you build some report you get it out the door you publish it development team says great here you go business go do your thing and you walk away and you say okay report’s good enough there’s no feedback loop there’s no form link on it that says how could I improve this what could we do to make it better do you have an idea put it here right there’s nothing that’s actually collecting value

19:52 nothing that’s actually collecting value back from like did we make did we meet the mark on this report or not so then you look at it 18 to 24 24 months later and then you go reintroduce another project and say okay now we need to fix this report let’s let’s now go through a process of fixing the report and then you you basically revise it in

20:12 and then you you basically revise it in that scenario publish it walk away come back revise it much later I do think that that that there’s a lot of things you’re trying to balance here the development team is only so many people you don’t have unlimited time or or money or resources to continually updating everything every couple months ideally you’d love to have people engaged on your reports constantly making changes refining it making it better but where my mind goes on this one is sometimes when you initially

20:42 one is sometimes when you initially publish the report the report is a point in time that was answering some questions that were important at that moment and I think potentially the reason what happens on this report why reports go stale or potentially go out of of usage is the requirements to the report as you look at it may have changed the business like so if you think about you business like so if you think about Simon SX the infinite game know Simon SX the infinite game type scenario here business is always

21:12 type scenario here business is always evolving there’s no end solution you’re not one and done and hey I’ve made my product let’s move on you’re always trying to improve you’re always your competitors are always doing something different than you you’re always looking to cut a different Edge on whatever thing you’re building I have to imagine the same thing is happening in the reporting world and this is why sometimes if you take a long time to build your first report the report you even publish misses the mark because in the time it took you to build the report and publish it the requirements have changed and

21:43 it the requirements have changed and what was important six months ago is not important right now the questions of that report are different because that report was built around a specific set of questions does that make sense or am I even on base there is that yeah you are and I think at least from my perspective right the the moment in time versus ongoing needs right and this kind versus ongoing needs right and this It speaks to a single team of It speaks to a single team building out these reports right maybe yeah right like let’s let’s just say it is it’s the it’s the business

22:14 is it’s the it’s the business intelligence team and they’re building out reports because the data team way I the way I took this is like a whole different way of like adoption within an organization but if we’re on the report level it’s a team it’s a person building this so those struggles of making sure that what was built in the first place meets the needs right of many but it doesn’t like it like there is so much Nuance did you build it right the first time as the company is is growing and things are

22:45 company is is growing and things are changing is the report still relevant or does it need to be updated right and I think that’s maybe his point in here that even after you put out a final product it’s good it’s good to Pro proactively iterate on it or potentially the business doesn’t know that they can make requests or enhancements to it so you find yourself in this position where 18 to 24 months later somebody comes in and says well we need to fix it well part of the problem there speaks to the issue with business and how they’re

23:15 issue with business and how they’re engaging with that report if it’s 18 to 24 months later and people aren’t doing anything with the report like then then we built the wrong thing to start with or we built something that didn’t meet the needs of the business right so either it didn’t be bu like either it didn’t meet the needs or what I see a lot of is teams teams that are building out these reports with an understanding that they will have a big impact but then the business just drops

23:46 impact but then the business just drops them like the the report is built but then there’s no engagement after the fact and and that is I think speaks to a larger problem I think around building reports for the right things that solve the right problems and not somebody’s specific problem because sure if it’s only going to take you two two times to look at this report and took us two weeks to build it it’s not worth it right it’s not worth building that out giving you the data or the access to like the information you would want to

24:16 like the information you would want to see or know yeah it is but we could streamline that exponentially by just pulling some numbers for you so I think there’s there’s a bit of that in here too yeah I think if we’re going to move away from data set to semantic model I feel like everything we’re saying is going to lead us to a different word for report and be because two things I I noticed both of you guys were talking about was fixing a report or updating a report sure and you think about like if you’ve been on a department if you’ve

24:47 you’ve been on a department if you’ve been on a sales team marketing team operations how they move where everything’s about context in terms of we have this project this quarter that we’re trying to do oh we have this campaign that we’re doing we’re trying to attack these customers this quarter and that’s like the all Hands-On deck that’s what they’re focused on they’re never for a whole year just doing one thing there there’s usually Milestones built in and they come to us with the more

25:17 they come to us with the more General view so yeah if we’re just build a report that’s very general it’s it will live forever but not have any impact that’s a good point you’re not gonna have right so if you really build an impactful report it has to have that context for something that I’m doing right now and it’s going to end at some point oh yeah unless I get fired report I agree to some point but then we get into various various types of reports right like there there’s a report that we built a long time ago that I never would have thought would be the the

25:48 would have thought would be the the report that is the most used and it’s because it provides visibility into some data sets that other like otherwise are not there and it is the most widely use report it’s not insightful it’s not it’s just a very simple interface that allows people to enter a few parameters and get get the results that they need it’s not it it there’s no hard thing in it versus I think Tommy what you’re talking about are those those very time expensive reports where we’re dialing in maybe a bunch of kpis to see how the business is

26:19 bunch of kpis to see how the business is doing or like there’s there’s a lot of time generated to develop something because a particular business unit wants to see C things certain ways and then you find yourself in this like well did we did you we build you the right thing or what do we need to do right well to your point and I I completely agree the only thing I would say is do how many kinds of or how the number of reports people need like that one that

26:50 people need like that one that visibility one there’s really one done where if I try to re then revent the will like here’s another visibility report that’s the same thing but slightly different once you have that one visibility report you’re gold in terms of that now it’s I think that moving on point so I definitely do not disagree with you but once you do that then I think there has to be some additional and I’m not saying analytical type reporting just better context on what is a team working on now or until

27:21 what is a team working on now or until the quarter or whatever their time frame is and what’s important to them now you have that visibility report that minor updates is probably a certified data set but then you have the other types of things that are again more focused but they have to be more impactful or contextual because they’re going to be more impactful so I guess I guess where I’m I’m liking your point Tommy there and I think I’m I’m resonating with the idea of the data set should be built in

27:51 idea of the data set should be built in a more Universal way the reports potentially could be a bit more throwaway in nature right there’s probably a report and this is why I think it’s important to identify what is the purpose of this port report right if this report’s purpose is to filter down a couple pieces of data and then export something out if that’s the needs of those users if that’s what you want to do in the business then you should do that right or at least be clear in the

28:21 that right or at least be clear in the context of the report right here’s the report that we built let’s be clear about what we’re going to deliver from this report the the expectation is you’re going to do these things with it it’s a filtering report it’ll get you to the answers you need on a day-to-day basis there’s likely a whole bunch of other elements that go along with this report that are more nuanced right you have like there’s proba when you start talking about these like the idea of the questions you ask against the data or the report there’s the generic ones and then that enables people to get access to their data and then there’s more

28:52 to their data and then there’s more specific ones that are insights on the data and I believe the insights by being clear about here this page is trying to give you this insight that page or that partion of the report that maybe needs to not be in part of your base report you may need to build a second report that lives on top of the same data set at the end of the day to your point Tommy the semantic model the self-service and or whatever was being built you want the same story of the truth and we we talk about this all the

29:23 truth and we we talk about this all the time in the podcast a model and thin report is the way to go because you’re re using that engineering workload every single time you’re building on top of that data set so from an engagement standpoint or maybe not engagement from a adoption we need to not only look at just the reporting metrics it’s the reporting metrics combined the data set metrics because it’s a it’s a package deal so you may not be getting a lot of usage on this report but if you’re

29:53 usage on this report but if you’re getting a lot of usage on the data set that’s that’s engaging there’s some there’s some really good comments that are coming in from the sad delis I think I don’t might be butchering your name sorry but Mike you’re were on the right track I think because engagement is the key word here I think to some degree because if you look at the the wide variance between some reporting that we do which

30:16 between some reporting that we do which is extremely useful for the business and right out of the gate like it has great usage and continues to have versus something that might have a big spike and then a drop off or something that never takes off at all sure I think it does speak to the need for the business to understand how how and what is going on with that report and your points like it is important for us to explain in reports or in some way shap or form that this is the view by which we are

30:46 this is the view by which we are producing this report right it’s in these lens it’s designed to answer these questions yes if it doesn’t like if you have other questions there are other ways we can look at the same day exactly and I that’s what that’s what business needs to understand or as you’re producing these artifacts like you can’t just launch them into the world without the the people who are consuming them having the rudimentary understanding of like not just how to engage with the report but what it’s actually showing

31:17 report but what it’s actually showing them and I think too often what we’re doing is we’re just putting bar bar charts and graphs and tables of information in front of people with a lot of filtering in things pre-done that shows a view of the world and it’s supposed to solve us set of problems and people come in with the wrong assumption that like somehow it’s going to solve all their problems correct and I think I think what that drives to is is a higher level of data culture or at least a a push in that direction from the teams who are building these reports

31:47 the teams who are building these reports to make sure that the business understands that this is an iterative thing and you do need to have a high level understanding that if you don’t see some like something in this report that you would find valuable but it’s based on the same data we can we can iterate on this it’s not something that like you just walk away from which is the other other side of this when you don’t have the appropriate training when you don’t have that level of understanding from a business unit if if

32:18 understanding from a business unit if if if you just shoot something into the world without proper communication without letting them know what’s going on you can expect your product to fail you never do that in any any other area right if you think about a software development right don’t do it have massive time spent from product teams to like iterate develop on a story and make sure that it aligns with customer needs Etc you’re working with the developers at like minimum multiple times over to Define and refine requirements like all of that prep work right but it’s not

32:49 of that prep work right but it’s not like they don’t they just launch it without like hey we just built this brand new feature go figure it out for yourselves of course not right right there’s release notes there’s hey there’s a video on how you go do this new thing there’s a campaign that tells customers how all this stuff works and like how you can enhance your business etc etc and I think sometimes well I think this poke pokes at the the situations where teams find them themselves in this situation where we

33:20 themselves in this situation where we know so much about data and we’re developing these reports that it’s just like oh this is going to be amazing and then we just we hit we hit publish we just shared this we just shared this with you you should you should understand it fully by just looking at it without giving them context and if business user can’t make that connection then yes unfortunately the vast majority of people in general are just going to be like it’s not useful and walk away as opposed to this looks useful let me go devote a bunch of time to figure

33:50 me go devote a bunch of time to figure out whether or not I can use this and then I’ll work with a team to like request that I can iterate on it takes a level of like direct engagement and you only get that out of a few folks correct and and a lot of times you think you’ll even get the requirements that are they don’t even know what they want like they know they don’t they know what you gave them is not right know what to ask they don’t know what to ask yeah and this this is a huge Point here I’m gonna have a hot take in a sec but Seth in order to get to that point where’re providing

34:20 get to that point where’re providing context that is assuming that we’ve had that conversations and that they to your point that they understand their own context too of what is that important Point what are those pressure points like because they’ll say no I just want to see it quote as like no no no like let’s really break this down if we are going to have that type of context in our reports and that insight and have those release notes and features you cannot just do that the only way to have that is to have the right information

34:52 that is to have the right information from that team and that’s going to require basically I another way of how we think of report development right now it’s either sandbox development we publish this in prod we think of it like an app or like a website launch whereas I think with these types of contextual reports we H need to spend more time rather than saying we’re going to build a product for you like hey what’s the situation let’s Workshop what are you trying to measure because if that’s the biggest problem then it the technology

35:22 biggest problem then it the technology doesn’t matter but we need to spend that time to go okay where are your pressure points let’s say like what what would you love to see and taking it that way then doing development off and like you said probably off already created semantic model but when it’s published that doesn’t mean like again like it’s now it’s a like a power app that everyone can use it’s verified but it needs to go then through feedback with the bigger team because you’ve been working with stakeholders and where you basically have this other stage

35:53 basically have this other stage like yes it’s in production the numbers are right but it’s this point this has been this isn’t now in a sense closer to an MVP than it is your final thing the only reason you would do this again is because you’re all of a sudden now we’re in a partnership with that team and because to get that Contex you cannot get get the context with just a requirement scope as helpful as those are that only gives you so much information and that will never tell you that will never tell you what bothers them or what keeps them up at night and

36:24 them or what keeps them up at night and I think this is why you want to focus on the action BAS portions of your report yeah if you already again assuming you already have those visibility reports the data dumps doesn’t really doesn’t really matter though regardless of data dumps visibility stuff okay fine that’s to me that’s self-surface right here’s a model do you understand how to use it that that to me that’s table Stakes what I’m talking about now is is talking about like when you have that conversation don’t dive in immediately and let the

36:54 don’t dive in immediately and let the user say I need this table I need this V chart I need this like the the the even just a hey look you have an hour with them take the first 10 minutes and say look before we look at any visuals or things like that tell me what you need to do after looking at this data what actions do you take what is most important to do your job at least now you’re able to see and and what happens in those conversations I feel like is you would start identifying oh you ask for something that the data doesn’t include in there like you just

37:24 doesn’t include in there like you just you just said something about targets that wasn’t included in the model but now you’re going to the report to dump it to go find your target somewhere else and apply them to the report okay and there are things that are going to be happening in these places where you can’t automate it away there there will be some manual work at some level in some of these reports I’m convinced it’d be nice to get rid of all that but you can’t answer everyone’s question with a by adding more pages to the report I think I think what I’m hearing

37:55 report I think I think what I’m hearing though like in in the Nugget that i’ taken out of this is like yes there’s a requirements component to this where it’s like refining and making sure we’re answering the questions right but I’m I’m assuming that we’re already doing that because even when you do that you’re you’re you’re defining a scope that and a context for a report right like this is this is what we’re producing we’re not producing you with an AI engine that you can ask any question you want and get an answer that’s not what this report is going to do I think what you

38:26 report is going to do I think what you you strike Accord with me Tommy when you you start talking about okay I’m working with the with the stakeholders and now I need to run this report past a larger team and sometimes you can do that and sometimes you can’t however when you do that how how do you run it past the the larger team right you you are the one that’s communicating and articulating all of the things that we’re talking about about the report to the wider audience because they have to

38:56 the wider audience because they have to engage with it so if you’re already bringing that open to a wider audience like are you are you launching that from a meeting or are you just saying like hey it was scoped and now we’re just going to open up access to that report like are you are you training people or are you just launching it well I think there’s there’s three approaches that either put together or I would recommend not necessarily all three but it’s having the somewhere on the report direct link on like suggest feedback so

39:28 direct link on like suggest feedback so just at least having that out there for any major report you do the road show so you actually say put a face to who actually built the report so they know who to contact go through the demos and then you have your office hours as well where people anyone can ask questions if it is a big enough report then you set up a week like a two weeks after it’s launched anyone who wants to discuss that report yeah you’re going to get a lot of noise but I you’re going to get a lot of noise but you want to talk about a structured mean you want to talk about a structured way I think allowing all three of those

40:00 way I think allowing all three of those Avenues again that’s a lot of work for every report and I I’m well it’s not every report no no not I think what we’re talking about here from a training perspective a lot of this lanss on certified and stuff that we want people to regularly use we all admit RBI has made report

40:21 use we all admit RBI has made report building a commodity there’s going to be a lot of things created that are just not good so a lot of ation I’ve been having recently is where is the break point between what is certified and what is not what does the process I me a lot of people communicate like well if it comes out of the central team it could be certified but because of internal policies we have no way of certifying any content that comes out of like that’s generated by not the central team which is totally cool and I think you should do that but I do think you need to at least Define a process that says

40:52 to at least Define a process that says as the business builds reports as the business finds value from things that they’re created on top of your data models what is the process to Circle back to okay we have a report it’s getting high usage of metrics it’s not owned by a central team does it need to stay in that business unit as part of their reporting or does it need to get funneled back in and actually follow a formal process around now it does become certified and I think if you really look at organizations more organizations are more interested in

41:23 organizations are more interested in saying we want to build the data models the data models are the parts that Central bi teams now want to manage they do not want to manage the report creation process all the time there may be a handful of them but at me strategically the central bi team should not be building all the reports for every request all the across the organization there’s too much to build so it’s better more useful of our time to build welld designed smart data

41:53 to build welld designed smart data models that can be reused and understood by a business to build their own stuff so of ideas that’s it that’s the end of the topic no no no no I’m typing out next I’m trying to figure out which way I want to go with I’m trying to figure out which of two directions I want to go with that because I can I actually I can’t help myself you’re gonna go both directions Tommy just just admit it you’re going to go both directions like so let’s Okay so pick

42:23 directions like so let’s Okay so pick one let’s talk about that one first and then we’ll come back to the second so write them down on your notebook so we can get get the both of them okay write them down let’s take the first one what’s the first R what topic the first one is it’s going to be in requiring that from the manage Self Service where people are either GNA just build reports is going to require a lot more Dax conversations because the data model works but there is a good amount of Dax you need to new do because most people’s problems is they try to

42:55 people’s problems is they try to configure the data model for a certain situation yes when a semantic model if you are doing your Dax right can solve most of that but so I I don’t think we’re gonna get there or I see that’s it’s going to be a little harder to get because that’s requiring a lot more people to have a very good understanding of Dax and that’s going to be that report author who’s not data modeling that’s the weird thing with Dax right it’s not it’s you have if you’re going to use a if you’re going to

43:25 you’re going to use a if you’re going to do it right or do all the situations that someone’s going to ask for without changing a model you got to know your Dax you got to know your filter context I I will agree I I do think so I will also argue I don’t think Dax is so incredibly difficult that you that people shouldn’t learn it and know it in in the same way that there are certain people who know how to do simple things inside Excel with form like everyone knows Excel like I would say that is a that is a table Stakes alignment if you

43:55 that is a table Stakes alignment if you hire someone and you say the assumption is do Excel to say yes you assume they know what they’re doing like there’s it’s like a to me it’s table Stakes so in lie of that I would say it’s not that far away from some of those basic functions inside Excel I will agree with you though around there is more com complicated filter context pieces that makes things much more complicated and there are what I would call common calculations running total a

44:27 call common calculations running total a 4-we average there are formulas out there that are not as easy to get your head around and I think Microsoft is definitely trying to address that and make that easier for you to build things with but at the end of the day I wouldn’t I wouldn’t overbuild my central model with every single Dax measure that every single user needs but I wouldn’t I I would try to address like what are the main conversations we want to have around calculations on top of this data and I think I think documenting the model and

44:58 I think documenting the model and showing people the relationships so let me give you an example I’m looking at the powerbi Enterprise reporting that Microsoft gives you in pv. com you can go play with the data sets there are tables there there are relationships between said tables you can even grab their measures and use the measures in those tables can you effectively build a report on a on a Model that you can only see the tables and the measures I would argue I’m struggling to use their data models because there’s no document I don’t know what the measures are doing

45:28 I don’t know what the measures are doing I don’t know how the tables are connected and related together so to me there is if you’re going to give people the ability to build stuff on top of models you’re going to need to do some level of education and or some work to to document what’s going on there until Microsoft gives me more documentation or I just spend the stinking time to go through these tables and try and figure out what the heck is doing like how do I get this stuff to look and join together there’s there’s no hope like there’s no way to get to figure that stuff out so

45:58 way to get to figure that stuff out so to me from my perspective like that is what you’re giving business users at the same experience here’s a model I’m not going to tell you anything about it Go build stuff not good it’s not going to end well for you sorry that was that your first point Tommy that’s where I was getting at too because that’s what happens I’ve done the same thing with the Microsoft model model but that’s why we’re here because the all those situations are always like well there’s some other data source or some other context that you’re not going

46:29 some other context that you’re not going to blow up a normal model Buy in general but it’s we was like well I need to see it in a different way so unfortunately like as great as the semantic model is for those more managed custom selfservice point of view how it’s going to bring up a composite models again but I’m going to I’m going to backtrack put that in the parking lot I think the biggest thing is if you’re going to have that the the more of the business going to be part of the user adoption

47:01 the user adoption story you’re you’re right like all sudden they now have to be completely comfortable in filter context I don’t say I don’t think so no I disagree completely comfortable all in filter context day one not possible and you’re G to have people that are G it’s going to be a progression for them if it’s going to work if you’re GNA have them to be able to run with it this is but this is why the center of excellence exists this is why you the training this is why every month you do these educational things to the organization people are going to learn some very basic things oh

47:32 going to learn some very basic things oh look if I do this little sum hey look if I do Google this thing on the internet and it produces an answer for me oh look I just chat gbt how to get this formula to work I’ve had customers do that and they’ve written Dax off of chat GPT and said I have a column named this this and this how do I write this measure it does it so don’t tell me they’re not going to be able to figure stuff out and they don’t need an entirely very robust layer of of of filter context when they become experts yes they will but as they’re learning in their progression no they

48:02 learning in their progression no they don’t they’re going to get there but that’s why the center of excellence exists that’s why the Community Practice exists because there will be certain individuals in your company that understand what’s going on and you need to hire or you need to find the talent that the person who loves to go deep on models they’re tuning they’re optimizing they’re building things the best way they possibly can because that user is going to be used to inform others across your company about how to do things well and that’s why you have the teams Channel that’s why you have the community practice that’s why you do

48:32 community practice that’s why you do videos around let’s understand this data model or how to use filter context to build these various measures when you start doing that I think you’re going to start seeing people getting over those hurdles of learning and training around Dax and it will become more second nature to the coming but this is a data culture problem this is not a technology problem and honestly the I would agree with you I I would still have want to have another conversation on what kind have another conversation on what leash do you give those people out of leash do you give those people out and like what are you comfortable but

49:02 and like what are you comfortable but we’ll say that for another day a leash sure whatever thing so or no like you’re gonna restrict the users you want the most engagement well no if you’re GNA just say hey you can do manage selfservice you’re going to start building your own reports and they don’t have the have the skills why do you why do you assume you don’t run them through training my assumption here is if you’re going to do if you’re going to say yes build your stuff there’s there’s a minimum training they have to go through even to do that okay so like to assume you’re just going

49:32 okay so like to assume you’re just going to open it wide up dumb any organization who just opens it wide up is going to be stupid and they’re going to fall flat on their face you’re gonna get a bunch of crap and then the central bi team is gonna have a bunch of cleanup to do on aisle six and this is coming from the person who thinks certifications are a load of crap you no yeah that’s totally you are totally misreading me on that one because that’s not what I’ve ever said I say everything should be certified with the exception of you’ve got to figure out where does that effort

50:02 got to figure out where does that effort level live CER CER people oh yeah 100% certification on people okay okay all right why would why would why would you think I ever would say that because you said that to me I’ve said are you talking about Microsoft you’re talking about the pl300 okay the pl300 that does not mean certified you’re using the term you think is certified so to go to Microsoft

50:27 think is certified so to go to Microsoft and say A pl300 certifies you to work in filter context and be like I would I as a business go out and find someone who’s pass a three pl300 and just hire him off the street no I would not that certification for that particular test does not qualify you as a solid indidual individual to build inside my organization would you would you like but here’s here’s the other side of that like you’re not going to you’re not going to run people through a certification test that they have to pass in order to give them access to powerbi in your company not a

50:58 powerbi in your company not a certification test but they’re going to go through a minimum of training ABS they because you want to enable them sure you want to like part of enabling people and giving them access to the things they need is they need to understand at least how to start using it other like you’re going to spend you’re going to spend so much time Andor the only people that are going to get through that are the ones that are like the the few the proud the the crazy that want to like go figure it out for themselves I do want to dial back because this this spans the data

51:28 because this this spans the data culture and the report level right and and my my point in the OR aligning with the outcome of Brent’s article here is that potentially if if we measure user adoption whether that’s on a report level or within an organization I think it it spans I’m thinking about this as like in the okr framework if adoption is the objective like what are the key results or what are the things that we need to do as report authors or teams or

52:00 need to do as report authors or teams or people who are trying to build these things within an organization that we’ve talked about today and one of those the first would be like understand value and act and what by that is like four reports that are out there I think we need to create a cycle where you’re asking what questions does this report answer are those questions still relevant to the business and that’s a that’s a communication thing between the business and the people building the reports and maybe it is the person within the report thing but if not what

52:31 within the report thing but if not what actions are we taking are we deprecating are we enhancing because like the the business is slightly changed or are we building net new because we no longer have those questions that we have to answer and this report isn’t useful we need to provide support and if this is on a report level it’s like it’s the bare minimum of documentation it’s bare minimum of a community of access where business people can ask questions can understand like how a report potentially Works Etc and it’s training

53:01 potentially Works Etc and it’s training if you can find somebody who can adapt or adopt a a report that’s built out of you from you or your team and they can enhance it and they can do that that’s fantastic and then communication and marketing right you can’t just publish something into a business unit without doing what we talked about with feedback from the bigger team but also communicating what is the scope of the report what questions is it supposed to answer like all of those things that make it valuable to people and and allow

53:32 make it valuable to people and and allow them to engage with what you’re building and get value out of it and I think I think that these bullet points you can apply on a report level as well as potentially on a a wider scale it’s just in a larger Forum right when I say a community like and you’re building one report that’s like maybe you have an hourong session every couple weeks or something where people can talk and communicate about like problems they’re having or something versus if you’re doing that in

54:02 something versus if you’re doing that in an organizational level like is there a forum is there are there people asking and answering questions are you doing training sessions are you how active are you trying to create the community of people that are not only using but hopefully Skilling themselves up to be contributors within an organization as well so I think there’s a lot of validity to like question or validating that yes old school it approaches of like build it and they will come don’t work not in data for

54:32 will come don’t work not in data for sure not in reporting and there are a lot of nuance areas where we should think about this as a handshake between technical people who are building something and the business where this is an ongoing relationship where we’re at least providing enough value to them that they understand how to consume the report and how to ask for the next things as the business evolves and need to be receptive to that yeah I agree don’t don’t don’t mix up my words

55:03 agree don’t don’t don’t mix up my words here the difference between training the difference between training and certification I think those are two different things that you’re looking at and I and and this regardless the end of the day Tommy to your point what you said earlier skills are important these These are these are like you’re giving you’re getting new technology into people’s hands we know you’re comfortable with Excel what does the skills look like what skills do we need and this is something that’s a Miss inside the PBI community and I’m looking

55:33 inside the PBI community and I’m looking to fix some of this but there is there is a distinct skills gap of what type of role do I play in the powerbi ecosystem what level of skills do I need to have to do XYZ things across the platform and to your Mike looks like your video just froze so he was so astounded by your oh there you are oh there I think you’re back yeah

56:03 are oh there I think you’re back yeah glitched out they cut back for I cut out for I deserve I deserve that I deserve that so no and obviously M just messing with you but just because conversation we had but I I said I do it makes for good it makes for good audio right if we if we agreed on everything no one would have listened to the podast and they wouldn’t be like w I should have hung around until minute 56 because Mikey and Mike and Tommy are going to argue at the end about which canoli is best like come on listeners

56:35 canoli is best like come on listeners right right if you actually remember last year I’m like hey Mike I got certified and this and this and this and you’re you’re like that’s a load of crap you those are the words I went okay no but I and I listen I was only saying that because part of it I agree too you can do training you can do other things I I know we’re right at the end but Seth you’re you ignited a fire in me what you just said in terms of that’s a great idea because I can’t spend all day looking and trying to

57:06 spend all day looking and trying to follow up with people but if we have a scan activity we can set up automation to say hey this report’s been published for a week or two two weeks it’s got this view this usage time to follow up yep so that’s that has has to be something it all hinges on do you have a solution around how to monitor stuff coming out of your tenant or you would not drive a CL would you would not drive a car with your eye shut you should not run a powerbi environment leaderships

57:37 run a powerbi environment leaderships this is leaders this is talking to you leaders you should not run a powerbi environment without having your own monitoring solution yes Microsoft provides you some things but is it really worth can you really manage your environment from it I have found the answers it’s okay at best you need to have your own solution so yeah you’ve you’ve gotta you’ve got to have a monitoring solution in place so you can actually do these insights on what is important to you as a company and align those excellent with that we really

58:07 those excellent with that we really appreciate your time this has been another great argumentative session with a with a ton of intro that was so much fluff and and griping in this episode so we really hope you enjoyed our super random tour of the world of of our therapy session here so hopefully this is helping you out as well thank you very much for your time we appreciate your listenership and thank you for giving us a little bit of Grace here as we ramble through some of these topics together don’t worry there will be more Sparks between Tommy and Mike in the future and Seth will continue to

58:38 the future and Seth will continue to drop in with bombs of knowledge that will just set us straight and we’ll be we’ll be okay from there so that that seems to be how this thing rolls with that we really appreciate it would you would you please share this podcast with somebody else waste someone else’s hour of their time that would be wonderful if you could also do that from somebody else we would appreciate them to also be not productive during work hours for at least one hour throughout their day anyways Tommy where else can you find the podcast you can find us on Apple Spotify wherever get your podcast make sure to subscribe and

59:08 your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton you have a question an idea or a topic that you want us to talk about in a future episode head over to powerbi tips podcast leave your name and a great question join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation live on all powerbi social media media channels do you ever feel like you’re you’re like parenting two younger children in this podcast does that does that feel like that no we all play that play that role

59:39 role rotates rotate this is true there there needs to be Conflict at least in One Direction at at any given time even if it’s not real actually believe it or not Tommy and I so truth be known Tommy and I talk about this ahead of time and we intent take different opinions on no we don’t we don’t do that at all that doesn’t happen thank you all very much we’ll see you next

60:31 [Music] you

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