Solution Planning Requirements – Ep. 293

In this episode, the team continues Microsoft’s Power BI implementation planning series and focuses on a step that’s easy to underestimate: solution planning requirements.

They unpack what “requirements” should look like for a Power BI initiative (hint: clarity and alignment, not paperwork), how to avoid vague asks like “we need a dashboard,” and how to turn business goals into something you can model, measure, and deliver with confidence.

News & Announcements

• FabCon Community Conference (Microsoft Fabric Conference) — The team highlights the March 26–28 conference (plus workshop days) and shares discount code Carlo100.
• Power BI implementation planning: BI strategy and BI solution planning — The Microsoft guidance the crew is walking through in this series.
• Submit an idea or topic for the podcast — Send a question you want the team to debate.
• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Browse the full back-catalog and listen on your platform of choice.
• Power BI Theme Generator (Tips+) — Build theme JSON to standardize colors, fonts, and styling across reports.

Main Discussion

The real job of requirements is to remove ambiguity. When you agree on who the solution is for, what “good” looks like, and which definitions matter, the downstream work (semantic model, DAX measures, visuals, security, rollout) becomes dramatically less painful.

• Anchor on the decision: identify the decisions users are trying to make and the questions they need answered to make them.
• Define the audiences and their workflow: executives, managers, and analysts need different granularity, interactivity, and explanation.
• Make success measurable: specify adoption expectations, accuracy, refresh cadence, performance targets, and “time to answer” goals.
• Lock down definitions early: align on metric definitions, grain, and business rules (the semantic model can’t fix disagreement later).
• Be explicit about scope and tradeoffs: what’s included in v1, what isn’t, and which assumptions are being made to move forward.
• Surface data constraints before designing visuals: identify quality gaps, missing keys, and source-of-truth conflicts that will shape the model.
• Plan ownership and governance: decide who owns the model, security, refresh, change control, and support once the solution is live.

Looking Forward

For your next Power BI project, start with a one-page requirements brief (audience, decisions, definitions, success metrics, constraints) and use it to review each iteration before you scale the build.

Episode Transcript

0:28 welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike hello everyone welcome back good morning and happy Tuesday gentlemen it’s a happy happy Tuesday I am waiting for you to do that while Los losing your breath because man we are you want me keep extending it I’m wondering how strong the lungs are oh dude this is like maybe one a quarter of how long I make it I’ve been friends with for a long time he’s full of hot

1:02 air fact facts B that’s a b comment facts know Bas I don’t know what based things mean anyway say all the time on the YouTu I’m looking for the increased engagement then yeah there you go excellent our main topic for today is we are going back through the implementation planning documentation presented by Microsoft wow that sounded like an advertisement if I’ve never heard one that that was pretty good welcome back Friday Friday Friday whatever the actually it’s Tuesday Tuesday Tuesday there you go we’re going back to bi solution planning and so we’re going to talk more about the

1:33 we’re going to talk more about the solution planning portion of this episode I guess it’s the bi strategy the strategy has been broken down into overview planning tactical planning and now solution planning so this is the last part of the bi strategy there’s a couple more topics we may do one or two more episodes depending on how many people like these videos and we may do a couple more so let us know in the comments below or tell us what sections you’d like us to cover in any future episodes if you want us to keep going or if you’re bored we can just move on to some other stuff

2:03 can just move on to some other stuff we’ll talk about other memes or something we find on the internet that’s funny all right that being said we do have a couple intros and openers today so first off I want to just let everyone know if you’re not signing up for the conference Microsoft’s really pushing the Azure datac conference or Azure datac com. com this is the Microsoft fabric conference that they’re doing you can register on their website and you can the main conference goes from March 26th to the 28th there are Workshops the 24th and 25th the pre-con and they have

2:35 24th and 25th the pre-con and they have a postcon as well on the 29th and if you won $100 off your registration use Carlo 100 for $100 off your registration and come see us in Las Vegas I don’t know if you guys are going you guys plan on attending this year or not yet I’m getting closer and closer to thinking about it there there’s a few things it’s the last week of March right yeah so yeah it’s it’s getting March has gotten pretty busy I know I know so maybe I’ll make a surprise visit I’ll make that’s amazing all right so

3:05 make that’s amazing all right so hopefully we’ll see you in Los Vegas talking about fabric things and going through a lot of stuff there as well I’m talking at two sessions I have one on data flows and one on spark and AI stuff so come check me out say hello if you are going out to Las Vegas all right Tommy you have another intro open here and you’ll notice that today for those of you who are watching on YouTube I do have a scar on today so it’s not my intro this is my friend this is all you that’s that’s

3:36 friend this is all you that’s that’s true but kind you wanted to bring up the point oh yeah I I I happen to say that I love the fact that you went to France and Europe and now for the first time ever you’re sporting a scarf on the podcast what on podcast and it’s very very French of like just very European of you very very French of you I love that so to be perfectly honest it was in my backpack I was cold I pulled it out and thre my neck and I was like oh this is comfortable and I just forgot to take it off before we do the video so yes I went over to Oslo

4:08 video so yes I went over to Oslo to fabric February where I was able to speak over there in at in the the conference myself and Ben Ferry did a impromptu not impromptu we planned it but it was like a a Q& A open question answer session during lunchtime people got down were coming downstairs grabbing their lunch and their food and we just took random questions from the audience and just did a interactive Ben Ferry on his YouTube channel the powerbi guy does a great job of just open conversation with other experts across the power Bay industry ask them

4:39 across the power Bay industry ask them questions they just have Canon conversations it doesn’t have to be data related it could be other things related but it’s just a fun conversation around getting to know people through video so anyways we decided we wanted to do that same feel and event inside the the fabric February conference so we had an unfortunate ability to help out there we also helped out in like the community area ask questions talk to people who were visiting this generally said hi and it was a it was a great event really well done would try again so if you

5:10 well done would try again so if you hear of another fabric February coming out from the Oslo team Katherine Marta and I think there’s another lady who was running it did a great job so super good event really enjoyed it would definitely recommend it and that’s where scarf came from cool just unpacking from the bag that’s good that’s a whirlwind trip yeah we went to Paris all up to Oslo for the conference get to see Ben fairy Ben Fair’s a man man like he’s hilarious he’s easy to talk

5:41 hilarious he’s easy to talk to I think he told me that he was once a I think this was right I have to make sure I fact check this while we’re talking he told me he he used to be a steward on an airline what yeah and I feel like when you’re lives we all have I feel like you like there were people’s like parts of their career you’re like what what were you what were you doing you’re you’re in data now like you’re not and and I find it’s very interesting the people that there are

6:12 interesting the people that there are certain parts of your career that kind certain parts of your career that shaped your personality a little bit of shaped your personality a little bit or maybe your personality shapes part of what you want to do but I feel like being that person in an airline serving people you have to have a very outgoing personality to be able to read people I think pretty well I feel Ben reads people really well yeah I would I would suggest and and this is coming from obviously having the experience but I I think I think a stint in the a service industry is probably

6:43 in the a service industry is probably some of the best training you can get so as you’re when you’re younger shoot shoot for a service like waiting yeah attending well you did wait right part of your and and bartending yeah I was ining restaurant business business for a long time and man yeah just the Myriad of personalities the how to strike a conversation choke choking down Angry

7:15 Words being treated not nice and just thank working through it sir really appreciate that the slogan is you’re not gonna enjoy it but you’re gonna learn from it right yeah just invaluable lessons maybe this all funnels into why we’re so good at doing power and working with the business all the time because we’re like I have words to say but I’m restraining from saying them to them to you I had someone when I worked at Coldstone they said all right they put a dollar and they’re like sing for me monkey I’m like wow serious there there are

7:49 like wow serious there there are points dance where one might just say wow thank you for stopping in there’s the door there’s the I there’s the door let me add something to your ice [Laughter] cream oops I just dropped it on the floor I’m sorry about that you say are you allergic to nuts okay sure we avoid that I perfected I perfected my entertainment business at Coldstone I could flip those spatula those spoons oh

8:20 could flip those spatula those spoons oh man to seen I feel like does it come back to You Tommy like if I gave you some spatulas now could you like bang on the table like ding ding and throw it in hand you could do it you could still do it I could catch a brownie with the best of oh man yeah yeah yeah I’m I’m thinking this might have to be a a special episode of walking into a a Cold Stone and seeing if we can get Tommy behind the bar and the part that I’m not telling you is I’m as clumsy today as I was back then oh no so you lost lot of ice cream so

8:51 oh no so you lost lot of ice cream so you were fired because all the ice cream went on the floor why I think I got get fir but but to your point Seth I will say I think it is very useful for people to do this and my kids have been watching all kinds of YouTube videos and and they’re they’re venturing out we have the Dude Perfect app on our Apple TV and there’s a new creator that just got added there I don’t know his name yet but my son’s watching him and he’s literally he has this challenge he’s trying to go across the United States

9:21 trying to go across the United States selling random things and trying to earn money to be able to get a flight be able to fly someplace else and so part of what one of the things he does is to make money he buys a thing of water bottles and goes out to like a park and just sells them to people he buys a 24 pack for like I don’t know 50 cents on the on the bottle and then he can go sell them for a dollar or $2 for a bottle and people will buy it and I told I told my son I said I I should challenge you to this we’ll see who can sell here I’ll we’ll both buy 24 packs and whoever can sell

9:52 both buy 24 packs and whoever can sell the most amount of water on this that’s that’s the challenge and he’s like that’s so awkward why would you ever want to do that and I thought to myself this is a really valuable skill if you can being able to sell and convince people what you have is worthwhile I people what you have is worthwhile what we do in business we do this mean what we do in business we do this so often I’m like this is a really valuable skill to have like it to be able to do that I couldn’t agree with you more another another great analogy is I was just talking to some friends over the weekend and I live in a smaller area

10:24 weekend and I live in a smaller area smaller town now and there’s only so many bars in in the realm and there’s one in particular that is probably the most traveled by spot one of the most traveled by yeah and they’ve been renovating it for at least two years wow and it’s always empty and my friend says because every time he goes in there he’s like I give it I give it a shot every three three to six months and every time

10:51 three three to six months and every time he walks in someone behind the bar looks at and goes what like that’s so seriously every time and it it’s just like there there’s you compare that to some of the more successful places that aren’t in that spot that aren’t as nice and they’re packed why Wow because there there’s personality behind the bar there is social it’s a fun place to be and it’s just like the difference between just

11:22 just like the difference between just just because you have something doesn’t mean you have the ability to to sell it s it just cuz you skills doesn’t mean you’re going to be great on your own if you can’t sell yourself so it’s a great skill because can you sit in your cooler and have 24 ice cold Waters underneath you y with a little sign that says $1 yeah but if you’re not pitching it oh man it is hot you’re sweating you’re working hard you’re looking hot oo come on over I got I got $2 water for

11:52 oo come on over I got I got $2 water for you right now right place and time convenience little word smithing right I see the little huge difference I see that little YouTube video of like sell me this pen and then like those all these little that’s a good one minute you imagine like to your your to your son to your point to your son right yeah if somebody walks up and you’re like what you think you’re gonna sell you’re gonna sell anything yes sell water no they’re just gonna be like never mind yep see you anyways I I feel these are some

12:24 you anyways I I feel these are some really good life skills that people should learn and learn learn how to sell things learn how to Market yourself learn how to like convey have that that softer side of things and that’s probably like a whole podcast by itself just talking about like the softer skills of of powerbi and I’m not gonna lie I I don’t think it’s a long walk from what we’re having the conversation here to honestly our first step in solution planning just a short it’s a long walk off the short pier it’s not too far of a walk honestly because I I went through some of the

12:57 because I I went through some of the the documentation I’m really I was thinking about it from I was trying to think about it from a different context okay like actually being in there so I won’t get too far I’m ahead of myself but okay there’s a lot here where it’s customer service from our end that I I me like the central bi team yeah it’s very true engaging the the team itself and there’s a lot I think we’ve spent up up until this whole bi strategy conversation or walking through the the documentation we probably spent the most time in this area so to to for

13:30 the most time in this area so to to for sure the technical bi folks this is a comfortable spot we’ talked a lot about these points it’ll be it’ll be fun to walk through and and whatnot but it’s the nuts and bolts even for the business users right like there’s a lot of really great nuggets of all the steps that you great nuggets of all the steps that are involved in putting together a know are involved in putting together a final product right and prior to this we’ve been talking much more on a higher level and this is where we start to get into the actual implementation the nuts and bolts of of things that are delivered to the business business well what a good transition so let’s jump

14:01 what a good transition so let’s jump into the main article here the link will be in the description of this video below so make sure you check out the link in the description here the article this one we’re talking about the bi solution planning and that’s the portion here and let’s just kick off this is the last phase of the three phases that are talked about in the article strategic planning tactical planning and then solution planning and they added a nice little pyramid icon that went along with this one so strategic planning was the apex of the pyramid the Tactical planning is what are we going to do how are we going to define the results okr all the things and then

14:34 results okr all the things and then so that’s like the middle layer of the pyramid and then the base of the pyramid is now solution planning so kick us off Tommy give us some initial thoughts or some overview of the article and we’ll go from there yeah and we’re going to be focusing on the first step today on Gathering requirements step one and step one in our solution planning Gathering requirements we’ve talked about the Strategic approach and tactical initiatives and solutions and now it’s like okay we have the idea we have our goals what Solutions do we need

15:05 have our goals what Solutions do we need to put in place and how who’s going to be involved what are we going to do from a technical side from requirement Gathering what are we going to do from the business side of of requirement Gathering the stakeholders need to be involved in an almost redundant fashion that we did in our first stage of our strategy planning and now we really have to understand what are the design scenarios what are the existing Solutions and where do we need to get to and that’s the at least the the cover here and I

15:36 the at least the the cover here and I have a few thoughts but I’ll pause there just get your guys’s initial reactions i h i struggle with companies and thinking through how do we Define the right the right requirements and a lot of times I feel like working with people they don’t know what they want they think they do or they have assumptions about things that don’t usually come true throughout the entirety of the project so I feel like a lot of this is okay I’m going to liken this to a bad analogy probably I

16:07 liken this to a bad analogy probably I like in gathering requirements is a game of Candy Land right you keep picking out colors you keep making progression you get halfway through the board and all of a sudden you pull out what is it Larry licorice I don’t know what it is it’s the guy the evil guy at the bottom right hand corner of the board and you get sent like you’ve gone through all these requirements you’ve made progress and all of a sudden you P you pull a wild card and all these exceptions come out and all these like well what about this and I need this and this and so you get

16:37 and I need this and this and so you get set back you get reset back and you’re not getting to the finish line and so if you do a bad job of defining your requirements it feels like you’re in a never ending game of Never Ending game of Candy Land where you’re constantly getting closer to the finish line but you’re never able to get there and you keep resetting Yourself by rebuilding things or refix things or getting more requirements or it wasn’t really articulated to begin with that’s my general beef now this may be just report requirements Gathering there’s probably a lot of other requirements across this ecosystem we can talk about as well but that’s just how I feel about like from the

17:08 how I feel about like from the report side it’s sometimes difficult to get people to align on the right requirements I would 100% agree with that and it’s the way your face expression was happening I didn’t know if I was off base I think you were I feel like I I feel like I was getting the knitted eyebrows from you said I didn’t know I started holding on to my desk I was I was waiting for the well actually I’m going to disagree with you there I’m going to go on mute and listen I’ve actually I’ve actually been very intentional lately because a good friend

17:38 intentional lately because a good friend of mine actually was talking to me about some of my tells at work right he’s like you always do this it’s the eyebrows and then you engage or and then you always do this and then I know it’s coming right we were talking about like what are different ways in meetings where you can see whether or not somebody’s gonna have a positive or negative reaction anyway no man I was what I was doing on the side was getting reinforcing points to agree with you because one of the things that isn’t outlined in the technical documentation

18:09 outlined in the technical documentation that we’ve talked about and I was looking up in I think it first came in episode 231 when we were talking about data models is this and what I think would be a good addition to the technical documentation here because it addresses what you’re talking about even as we go after requirements and and what the art what this documentation breaks out is go like the business side and the technical side is I have started utilizing much more than I have in the

18:40 utilizing much more than I have in the past conceptual models and that that article what we talked about earlier really well is is to me the linking the the missing piece in a lot of that stepbystep stuff that we have in business requirements Gathering and once we have the business requirements we start building the technical what conceptual does is it lands us in a really comfortable spot with the business where it’s almost like

19:11 with the business where it’s almost like taking the whiteboarding but to another level where we’re talking about a lot of the different concepts hopefully they have opinions of requirements but it’s the framework by which we’re starting the conversation and we’re always going to come back because the conceptual model could could be much larger than the thing we’re going to build and your your experience is may be similar to mine from the standpoint well I know it is we’ve talked about we’ve about this before I

19:41 talked about we’ve about this before I think and and in the vein here right we have strategic planning we have objectives we have key results like things that it’s very granular like there is a Bodywork everybody should know the topic that we’re talking about right this isn’t a random request coming from a business user but in both cases I think the conceptual model is a great starting point because you can take all these high level things throw them all on whatever your thing pizo Lucid chart mind map whatever

20:12 Lucid chart mind map whatever and then start to articulate great here’s the things we’re going to tackle from a a deliverable this is the objective that we’re going to solve what does phase one look like okay boom super high level right just so everybody can think about these pieces together and then you can start to like filter them down to a point where you’re going to go like here’s phase one here’s phase two here’s phase three and that’s been really helpful

20:42 three and that’s been really helpful even for me in those conversations where it’s like okay great you want these things here’s how like how that all works here’s what we have to do here are the questions we’re answering in this phase now we’re going to answer the questions in this one and it it’s it’s just the a great landing place and then from there you obviously get into the business requirements and you get into the technical where it’s just like more granular views of that same conceptual conversation always and if

21:12 conceptual conversation always and if you want to go like Traverse I’m starting in technical what was that again why are we doing this here’s the business requirements here’s the business logic that we’re introducing etc etc there’s always this this really nice tiered approach to re-engaging in the conversation whenever and wherever we’re at I really like this comment I’m not sure everyone will follow the difference between a

21:39 follow the difference between a conceptual model and a technical model is that what you’re you’re differentiating between here so maybe can you define how it would be the the what is a conceptual model and why is that different than a technical model well I’m I’m going to get put on the spot here from a a lack of specific definitions no no I’m just making sure cuz I think I think we’re on the same page but I’m just saying I think it would be just helpful because you you brought the word out of like I know it but I don’t know if everyone understands like what that means told don’t go back to the episode yeah maybe true back up

22:10 to the episode yeah maybe true back up back up into the episode But ultimately what we’re saying is we there are there are pieces to the discussion like we’re we’re going to go build something we’re we’re going to connect to these sources right so I connect like I have three bubbles here’s my three sources of information this is how it flows into the the data storage what we’re going to do is add a whole bunch of logic here and what this is going to generate is the output where we’re going to create a

22:42 output where we’re going to create a bunch of different calculations and on the opposite side of this we’re going to answer five questions in this way and here’s if you want to break it to like the basics of the visuals right the pages like here’s how we’re going to present this on a really high level here conceptually we’re going to answer the first two on this page we’re it’s going to flow into this other page where we’re going to show you this and if you want to throw in some wireframes cool right all it is is a framework that any business user in any technical docu

23:13 any business user in any technical docu technical person can engage with and say I I don’t understand what you were explaining here and you can always go up to the conceptual model here’s what we’re doing in this bucket where it Cascades is okay now that everybody is on the same solution like we’re on the same we’re on the same working frame in these pieces what are what are the business elements that we need to be cognizant of right so this is where I think you get into and we’ll we’ll we’ll

23:44 think you get into and we’ll we’ll we’ll we’ll see if the technical documentation aligns with my description but the business requirements are much more aligned with ensuring we have the business logic all of the the subject matter experts expert te of when we’re extracting data things we have to alter or modify or rules we have to follow Etc so in between there we have much more of the context that’s going to help the data engineer understand that as we build something they can vet the code against

24:15 something they can vet the code against the business logic in all these pieces so it’s going to be much more verbose it’s going to be pseudo technical to some degree but it’s going to have the core pieces that the business still very much understands and is like the Smee are really going to have a lot of input here where they’re going to like no you have to filter this data out here and this is why and this is the accounts and this is blah blah blah blah right million in one conversations lot more documentation then from there I think is that solid point where you get into technical where it’s like okay here’s

24:46 technical where it’s like okay here’s the sale here’s the CRM here’s the fields that we’re pulling the ones that we care about that have business logic now somebody give me the actual diagram we’re pulling these columns here’s the data types here’s what we’re doing this goes into the data bricks notebook we’re going to do it in do it in Python da and it’s all of the broken out like stuff you can just hand off to a data engineer and they go got it do how to build connect the connections the

25:16 to build connect the connections the usernames the password like everything that they would need to go build something so I think that’s I think a great that’s a great description of that and I I I gotta I got I’m be honest Seth I also cheated here as well I tried to ask chat GPT what what’s the difference between I love checking these questions but it did a good job it gave like a real example like imagine a conceptual model of you going into an app and ordering ordering some food what would you do conceptual model would be like open app see nearby restaurants

25:46 like open app see nearby restaurants select a restaurant browse the menu pick item and purchase that’s the like the conceptual model is like just the big like the big like that I’m thinking in the data world would be like okay we we have customers we have products we want to know where customers buy products like you talk at that higher level to some degree and say customer data lives in Salesforce yeah purchasing stuff lives in custom homegrown CRM system so like you can go through and figure those things out yeah but not

26:18 figure those things out yeah but not even that like where the value of this to me is I cannot tell you how many times I built a report or you walk in and somebody else has built a report and 6 months down the road somebody wants to enhance it or some bug is reported and the first question I always have is well what was it supposed to do right you’re telling me that a metric is wrong but is it what am I comparing that

26:50 wrong but is it what am I comparing that against and I guess the thing that strikes me is having like proper documentation of a model shirt whatever ever but if I have a conceptual model that or a concept that just goes along every time with the things I’m building well now I have the Frameworks now I can always like plug right into that and say well this is why we did this here’s the questions that we’re answering with this thing here’s why we decided to do that and all of that is part of the engagement and disengagement and

27:21 engagement and disengagement and engagement for different phases of a particular project so I need to pause here because I’m I’m struggling with something and it goes to really the heart of I think when we started the podcast we’ve talked about this in the real world everything you’ve said I agree with in a vacuum here and I’m G to pause here because this is an exercise I want you guys to think about this is now the third phase of planning that we’re in think about the brain drain and the low fuel that your

27:53 drain and the low fuel that your business is already on all the meetings we’ve done at to this point in an implementation all the workshops all the Strategic research we how many times we met with the business this is a really good point and now we’re getting to business requirements and I’ve been in these conversations and I’ve been through trying to do this you want to talk about trying to sell someone if I’m showing a client or my team hey here’s all the stuff we’re going to do to implement powerbi and now we’re getting

28:24 implement powerbi and now we’re getting to gaing requirements at this and I’ve showed them the documentation or the idea of trying to roll this out this is a hard this is much harder than selling a water bottle when you think about the amount of time and effort the business has to go through to get to this point again in a vacuum the Gathering requirement from a single semantic model yeah great but we’ve done a ton a ton of work with the business and asked for a ton of work from the business as well

28:56 ton of work from the business as well and they feed Fe back in meetings and calls and hours to get now to business requirements and now we have to now ask almost feel like we’re asking them the same questions now with requirements from Technical and now the business I don’t know how many businesses have this much time and if they’re being going to be willing to dedicate where we’re at right now not just B the Gathering requirements but what everything we’ve done leading up to this and that they’re going to be game for that and this is not just a bad data

29:28 for that and this is not just a bad data culture this is a lot of organizations because this is one technology to them with the lack of understanding even if they have the understanding we’ve done a ton of work and this is where I’m struggling with this ideal scenario of implementation planning but to get this many people on board for this long for this amount of time I don’t know how well this works at this stage I think this is fair a fair question question question but I’d also maybe

30:04 argue I’m trying to think how I how I phrase phrase this I feel like this is this is after the Tactical planning and you’re now honing in on like a specific thing you’re now at the place where know you’re now at the place where you’re solving one part of the data model right you’re you’re you’re you you’ve gone through look we know we need three major models we’re now talking about how do we solution one of these models what should model be what should be in that particular model and you haven’t gone into the details of that particular piece I’m also thinking here too like you in and thinking about this

30:37 too like you in and thinking about this again I would agree with you Tommy going through bi strategic planning there’s a lot of things in here like someone needs to go through and say okay I need to trim some fat on this my organization is not going to hold up for three weeks of meetings and then finally getting to like now we’re trying to deliver some solutions I think in some cases you have to move faster through this process I would agree with you because you can’t lose interest but then longer initiatives this is this is where I struggle though because some companies need to go through this quickly to start delivering value to get people to buy in other companies need to take more time to

31:09 companies need to take more time to really go through this process and make sure they’re really building the right thing because their customers really depend on it an example of this would be let’s focus on the difference between internal reporting versus reporting that’s going to your customers you’re probably going to take a bit more rigor around reports that go to your customers because it’s representing your company as a brand you’re going to stylize the report more you’re going to have more feature requirements you’re going to actually really do research on what does the external customer need of their data and make sure you have that as a

31:39 and make sure you have that as a requirement upfront as opposed to internal reports where you can maybe get away with like doesn’t be styled as much we can probably get a Model A lot quicker let’s deliver something now and just see if this thing adds value fail and fail fast and then you always come back and revise so I feel like the type of product you’re trying to produce changes and changes how much you want to invest in this planning or not I don’t know Seth any thoughts from your your side lots of them I specifically right like what I

32:10 them I specifically right like what I love if you go to the top of this article is there is a purple box that says note and in there it talks about Viva engage and okrs ultimately right here we’re talking about the initiatives and solutions right are processes or tools built to help you achieve one or more key results those key results roll up to

32:28 key results those key results roll up to the the objective I get what you’re saying Tommy and I think we’re talking about it a lot more in detail than how fast it can go because it’s very reminiscent to me of a you I I don’t know if these are the right terms but a product life cycle or Project Life Cycle right you you you will have a core group of people that are engaged in this cycle multiple different times all the time right

32:59 different times all the time right because we’re creating we’re helping create the objectives right when you have those objectives you’re helping create the key results that are going to matriculate and solve a business problem so business intelligence and data and Reporting and insights are extremely useful for organizations primarily in efficiency or in Revenue generation right right that it it’s a I I don’t I I hear what your point is

33:30 I I don’t I I hear what your point is but it’s not like the entirety of the teams and Technical Resources are part of every single one of these phases because they’re not right like decisions are made I think with with a group of people it matriculates down like you’re only doing strategic planning on a quarterly basis right like where you’re going to create new objectives or crush them then like tactical gets down to like the lower levels of like wherever and yeah if you have a huge wide

34:00 and yeah if you have a huge wide audience and a ton of business units that are engaged and the bic is responsible for all that man you’re cycling through this all the time yeah yeah so so like yes braing drain is from that team but like for the business yeah yeah like it’s part of it should be part of a cycle that exists right related to we’re we’re grooming stories we’re rooming things with a team and this is part of that

34:31 and this is part of that requirements Gathering to go build the the solutions that are driving towards the key results and objectives that roll up into the hierarchy of of things that we’re accomplishing across the board and and I I love that because I think there needed to be more of an emphasis on those low hanging fruits that we’ve talked about because if you were to realistically look at each of the items we’ve talked talked about in all the episodes I’m being conservative saying maybe it’s a month to get through that

35:02 maybe it’s a month to get through that at an organization to try to plan them write the results get everyone on board with that but probably more like two months if you think realistically so my worry there is you’ve gone two months now and you have nothing tangible you have goals and kpis but nothing anyone’s touching touching yet yet I no see when you think about I feel like I would disagree with that statement though nothing tangible I I take a little issue with that I think I think having I think having the

35:33 think having I think having the community practice is important I think documenting these sessions as they occur and some key notes from those items I think writing those things down on the Community Practice around here’s our main focus for this quarter here’s what we’re going to go do here’s what we’re going to go build I think yes I agree with you to some degree it doesn’t feel like we have a a product there’s not a report or model spit out of this thing but you have so much more like documentation and support and I think this is really a catalyst for getting

36:03 this is really a catalyst for getting all the all the horses in the in the herd to like line up and go the same direction so I think if you have too too many what do they call it too many chiefs and no Indians I don’t I don’t know what this phrase is too many cooks in the kitchen whatever the I think if you get too many cooks in the kitchen you start going so many different ways that you get distracted and I feel like everything that we’ve been talking about from strategic to Tactical has been making sure that we align everyone on the right direction and we all agree what we’re going to work on for a short

36:33 what we’re going to work on for a short period of time to we until we get something delivered and then we pivot to the next thing before we we switch I don’t think I don’t think you can underestimate the value of that and and to your point it doesn’t feel like a lot but I think nothing more will derail your organization faster than letting things just go run a muck and everyone going different directions cuz then you get all kinds of different answers we get no one owns the data and everyone’s pointing fingers at everyone and there’s just seems to be a whole lot of not healthy culture that comes out of

37:06 healthy culture that comes out of that right and I wholeheartedly agree the problem is I don’t know if always stakeholders will because yeah we have a list of what we’re going to do in our objectives and our key results but I’ve seen how many times you well I can’t do anything yet like there’s nothing been done I just have a list of these high and lofty great goals and the results we’re going to measure it on but up until this point in our implementation planning if we were just follow it verbatim step by step there is nothing

37:38 verbatim step by step there is nothing tangible no product no report no Center of Excellence that actually has been created yet we’re actually now doing the requirement Gathering that’s not true at all all where they in order to even start with this you need the team okay right that was one of the things we talked about like where where I got hung up is you need the resources to go engage with the business because you’re going to start making guarantees to the business very difficult to do that if you don’t have a Bic or you

38:08 that if you don’t have a Bic or you don’t have the resources to engage with the business units or you don’t have the resources to help them after you’ve had these discussions or they are are just on their own so I think there’s you’re right that’s step that’s step one of strategic planning plan Workshop no step one is assemble the working team like there’s people being aligned this is what we’re going to do yeah so I I honest there’s a lot we parse through strategic planning is something that I I think happens on a much longer Cadence

38:39 think happens on a much longer Cadence right like we’re we’re looking at a year you should you of the 20 areas that we’ve identified across the organization to improve data literacy or the data culture right there’s some high level objectives we want to hit as as those are defined the next levels in strategic planning are are to the points right the specific and measurable results that are going to make the most impact to the business it’s why you’re focusing on those objectives first to me this is just like

39:10 objectives first to me this is just like yes it’s a big lift from a if you’ve never done this before thinking through all these pieces aligning the different things that you need to do and then going and executing so like is it going to take a while for your first time through yeah it is it’s a new process it’s it’s something new you’re going to roll out roll out but as you get down to like after tactical to me these are the quick meetings and is there a lot of work involved absolutely there is because to your point Tommy you can have a and and I don’t think what comes out of tactical

39:41 I don’t think what comes out of tactical planning is a nebulous idea right it is we are going to go build this thing for sales that is going to increase sales by 10% right how do we do that while we talk to sales what are the things that you guys are missing what are the things that you need what is it boom boom boom these are all of the sudden all these solutions that roll into a a key result right or its own mini objective that you’re driving towards because the outcome should be a benefit

40:11 because the outcome should be a benefit to the business great we’re in the the business Gathering requirements meeting and like it’s funny we haven’t T talked about the article yet at all great we’re in the business like Gathering meeting We Now understand after talking with the conceptual model we don’t have one of these sources we have to go spend two plus weeks developing an API right okay that’s a Slowdown with this one we have this problem great that’s a Slowdown boom boom boom great and now with this business

40:41 boom great and now with this business unit we have five key results or Solutions right projects that we we’ve identified through this process that we’re going to go build in totality it’s going to take us two months but incrementally just because we don’t have that connection to the API we can solve that not it’s not the end state but we can solve it because we’ll dump it out and do an Excel file we’ll plug into it we’ll do this thing there are so many like quick wins right this was the the

41:11 like quick wins right this was the the quote in there whatever that as long as they’re still leading towards the end goal of the full solution I think is the key part of this yeah right where no we don’t want to go through all this and and wait and wait and wait we want get value so how do we get value quickly and it’s the technical team’s responsibility to tie that value in with the long-term strategy and that’s where I think this fits in where when we’re talking about solution planning and Gathering these

41:42 solution planning and Gathering these requirements you like the technical folks who are engaging with the business need to keep that in mind and look for opportunities to do that which also reinforces the whole idea of conceptual like doing the models as you go along so that you’re looking for areas of opportunity to say Hey you see this like pipeline of how we’re going to go build things we’re going to drop one off here and we’re going to say this is the temp fix we’re going to get this out to the business we’re going to vet the all the things it’s going to be

42:12 vet the all the things it’s going to be sound but we have some tech that to follow up with and then we’ll just fix that behind the scenes and they’ll never know and yeah the only reason I really pressed on this is we’ve talked about requirement Gatherings a ton in that vacuum and in that detail where it’s if this is where we’re in a sense starting so not to say we can’t talk about it more but when you think about and we will yeah and we will and we’ll continue to talk about requirements Gathering but you think about this context I think I’m I’m pressing the point does does some of

42:43 I’m pressing the point does does some of the requirements Gathering Me Maybe need to be a little before because there’s nothing worse than saying we’re going to do these great sales project and goal oh you’ve never track and then in requirements Gathering oh you don’t have that data or oh it’s all 18 access files okay that changes everything now and we know that too but that’s that’s my point in terms of starting these conversations without the assumption that I’m going to get good requirements yeah because I may not and

43:14 requirements yeah because I may not and we may have to like choose a different

43:17 we may have to like choose a different path or put it on hold before we even get down into the nitty-gritty of gathering business requirements because there’s this huge assumption that business is ready for you to to like go engage with them and I will tell you what it is the vast majority of the time yeah so there could be I like it when when people come in to you and walk in with like here’s an Exel sheet I I mocked up and or even just I need that looks like this and and we literally have a discussion and we’re

43:47 literally have a discussion and we’re just talking about making a really wide table so you can dump the data out and go do things with it I’m like I think we’re missing the point here I I feel like I feel like we’re missing that so the number of conversations I’ve had like to your point Tommy a lot of the time we like to talk about talk about the insights what what keeps you up at night what is causing you not to get to your goals that you want to get to those are better conversations I feel like to have because that’s actually driving towards like what we need to focus on and then set to your point right we’re

44:17 and then set to your point right we’re trying to marry this we’re trying to walk the business along this journey of you need these things do we have the information dat to get to it and this is to this before it’s like building that bridge You’re Building from the report side backwards towards the data and you’re going from the data side forwards towards the report do you have the data that supports what you want to see in the report here’s a question for you guys because I I love that because I think that goes into how we prioritize our our objectives I’ll pose this question to you should the requirements be a weight value towards

44:51 requirements be a weight value towards our our objectives what by that if we know there’s some big hurt hurdles we have to go through the Known Unknown so to speak and should that be incorporated in what our objectives are going to be meaning should we do more prerequirement Gathering requirements in the Tactical planning oh this is a great question I’m I’m going to give you the Consulting answer on this one a yeah I do think this depends right I think I think it depends on what your some of your objectives are if you’re new in

45:22 your objectives are if you’re new in this organization and you’re trying to get quick wins you’re probably not going to tackle the hardest problems first you’re going to start with some quick winds that are low hanging fruits that require little effort and just focus on those then I think there are also some very long running big rocks to move right to your point we have all of our sales data in a whole handful of bunch of access databases okay one can we use can we figure out how to extract that data in a very non-efficient way right

45:52 data in a very non-efficient way right now but maybe the right solution is we’re actually going to go buy a third party tool that helps us manage customer CRM data right we’re going to go get another product that’s a bigger play then I’m just going to use what we have today in Access and we’ll just make it work for now so I think I think you’re there is there is a in some that depends on what your main objectives have been if you’re just starting out you’re going to probably deliver those quick wins first and you’re not going to focus on those really big rocks to move until you really know it’s a problem and then

46:22 really know it’s a problem and then someone’s got to take that initiative and own it so it’s I think it I think it’s there’s not there’s not a one answer for that I can’t just say yes I just can’t say yes but I think it really depends on what you prioritize as the organization yeah and I I like your point Tommy yeah the Tactical planning solution planning if for talking about like are we discussing something future that we’re going to build to build a backlog of things that we can work on I I hope so right like initially if you’ve never

46:52 right like initially if you’ve never done this before everything you’re talking about is the stuff that you’re going going to work on most likely whereas you want the team that once you get into the cycle of developing or or producing enough output to start solution planning and then execution yeah that that team continues to build that backlog so that as you’re then solution planning right more of those things out how are we building the right stuff and these are all the steps in how

47:22 stuff and these are all the steps in how we make sure we do that you build up this backl that you can then schedule and Sprint and like it’s very it’s very Dev I think about it in Dev terms but it also is very successful like that’s why you have scrums that’s why you have Sprint all the methodologies around executing on a body of work if the body of work is part of the Strategic the Tactical and we’re making Headway consistently towards solving the problems of the

47:52 towards solving the problems of the business I. E these objectives in a timely manner all of that needs to be planned out right I need a road map to understand like the thing we’re talking about how long do you think that’s going to take how long do you think it’s going to take to get through the requirements and and this is where things get really nasty away from Dev and Technical is is how long do you think it’s going to take well as we just discussed it would have taken a week but now it’s going to take a lot more because we don’t have

48:22 take a lot more because we don’t have this thing that we assumed we were going to have and that’s where I think even in the documentation starts talking about making making assumptions is a bad way to or it’s a good way to fail quick is there anything worse than hey we’re going to work on the sales quota report everyone’s goingon to be super excited and then you have to go back to the stakeholders go yeah we’re gonna need five of your managers involved and we have to buy this other software but we can still do it right

48:52 software but we can still do it right like there’s nothing worse than doing that yeah wait I’m sorry sorry that that column we can’t extract out of that system because it’s it’s what it it it won’t give us the data yeah H that sucks we need all your managers involved and they gotta do a lot of extra input of the data the right way and oh by the way we’re going to need to invest all these extra hours that we didn’t know when we did our solution planning there’s nothing worse than that then you want to talk about something that really

49:22 want to talk about something that really depletes the the buyin or or sucks the energy out of of the our projects than Solutions is saying we’re going to do this great goal that’s what everyone wanted to prioritize and now you’re uncovering rocks and you’re looking under rocks and you’re going oh no one told me about this no one told me about this okay this is a lot bigger even though this is number everyone’s number one goal it is a really good point you one goal it is a really good point especially as you dive into know especially as you dive into new unfamiliar areas right like say say you yep we’re

49:54 areas right like say say you yep we’re going to go attack this thing because it’s the biggest area biggest area of improvement we have to make and it makes it through these conversations and then it gets down to the nitty-gritty where you do find a hard blocker and that Jacks with timelines right oh man like I it happens you just try to get out in front of it with the subject matter experts way before we get here that’s because if you’re if you’re uncovering unknowns in the nitty-gritty which is where we are right now exactly

50:26 which is where we are right now exactly yes that’s disruptive I’ll just say that so how do we prevent that well ideally the subject matter experts that are part of tactical planning they would say like yeah great great idea uhuh can’t do it not until Q3 right but at the same time then that’s part of okay part of pulling this objective off is having these things done in in order to get whatever the case may be but maybe it’s a new data source connection

50:57 maybe it’s a new data source connection setup maybe it’s ingesting data maybe it’s whatever the thing we’re saying that is the hard blocker working towards unblocking that that’s where having the those people who understand that business area you would you would hope would come out of that higher level conversation before we get here so but it happens it happens I’ll also I want to point out here so in that first section again I’m going to try and go back to the article a little bit here because I think you guys are saying that are hitting very good points here in Step One Gathering requirements

51:28 here in Step One Gathering requirements there’s two important blue box and there’s one in in purple the important one in blue has a couple phrases in there I really want to highlight based on what you were just talking about right collecting the wrong requirements is a common reason why implementations fail fail agree and then the other statement there along that is teams get the wrong requirements because they engaged with the wrong stakeholders potentially like decision makers who provide the top- down requests for the solutions to be

51:58 down requests for the solutions to be built as opposed to the people actually using the solution because those sometimes those requests differ yeah and then engaging business users by using a collaborative approach helps the business design to help you collect better requirements another thing they mentioned here in in this last statement here is better requirements lead to more effective development and more robust Solutions I would 100% stand behind that statement and say that is an understated note on top of that and then

52:29 understated note on top of that and then the second thing I just want to add here one one more thought here is for some teams doing a structured requirements Gathering especially in the business is a large change to what they’re used to doing and I also agree with the statement as well because I’ve seen a lot of times where they’re just like well we just go to excel we just go do something someone takes it into a vacuum does it all themselves and say Here’s my product I’m done right there’s not a lot of collaborative working on the solution and when you bring structure to something like this people are like what what is going on like yeah I could just tell you what I wanted and you would

52:59 tell you what I wanted and you would just make the table in reports and it would just be emailed to me every day that’s what I want well is that really what we want and so now we’re taking this more structured approach and people are taken back by that a little bit so really good feedback here and I think these I’ve seen in real life happening in this situation yeah lot of lot of head nods for sure which is why there are special notes I I’m guessing right it is it’s a big leap though because and it it it take having come from the business side 100% get it because you

53:32 business side 100% get it because you show up you have a your list of things to do but the vast majority of every day your day gots gets consumed by whatever whatever the thing is or things right somebody’s asking you to do something your boss comes down he says I need this those are the priorities all the time right it’s just it’s this cycle of I engage my job is is this doing a bunch of analysis I’m doing value providing value to the business I’m you providing value to the business I’m getting answers here and

54:02 know getting answers here and there but it’s not in any way shape or form structured like technology sides

54:07 form structured like technology sides like it sides right hugely structures but why is that structure there because the more involved you get in stuff that has to be built the more error prone it is right if we’re investing a lot more time and the output is not what we expect or it’s not what we we wanted from a value perspective then you have these big conflicts right then there are

54:37 these big conflicts right then there are problems and then like we get into this like well change management like we ever evolving requirements and well here’s we’re defining starts and stops we’re telling you what we can execute in a period of time and I think to your point Mike if there’s one thing that we’ve stressed And I stress too to the business user is yes like the full Dev life cycle of Sprints and all that is probably a little much and like don’t try to Ram that onto business User it’s

55:07 try to Ram that onto business User it’s it’s a it’s a hard fail but if you don’t do any of that you’re not the controller of your time and then you like the the result of that is work overload it’s stress it’s you hating your job it’s not understanding the value you bring to the business it’s not per like there aren’t big things that you’re achieving and this is where there’s that balance of think like the business act like it and the IT parts of this are

55:37 like it and the IT parts of this are bringing a little structure to your life and this is like this process that it like it’s walking through is more for the bi team is but now we’re bringing in bi Champions now we’re bringing in people that are developing reports and they’re getting engaged and understand that all of these are require are are things you want to do so we end on the right spot and not like in the wrong one and it also protects your time because all of this planning also brings into

56:08 all of this planning also brings into the the I think reality that we’re using business users to develop Technical Solutions and there is a time box that has to be protected around like what can actually be delivered in these time boxes and make it a make it a pass fail as opposed to what do you mean you didn’t develop like all six of the reports that were asked of you in the same week well that’s that’s completely it’s completely illogical that somebody

56:38 it’s completely illogical that somebody would look at you like that and expect it but if you don’t time box things or you don’t structure them in some way and you can’t communicate the length of time or the estimates Behind these things then the business has no idea like what the expectation should be they just think something up and and usually unreasonable and I I’ll I’ll take that back Seth to our conversation about customer service and how do you sell it because in this stage you are selling something you’re trying to sell the

57:09 something you’re trying to sell the ability to extract information for people to be honest when they’re sharing with you there is a critical Junction here when you’re going into these calls with the business because you’re right they’re not used to these conversations if you go okay well what do you do just walk through process they there’s still a part here where now you’re selling them they have to be willing and want to show you their process and want to show you the things that don’t work well because this goes back to the Styles and the Privacy they every time they see you

57:40 Privacy they every time they see you they go oh it’s him again or her again we have to now do this and they’re asking me for this we have to go on these calls with a smile structure those calls and say okay let’s really walk through your process here we’d love to see how you do it tell us your bottlenecks and they have to be willing and wanting to share the information and we have to say it in a certain way to get the right information because you’re right Mike you said that too they go I have a few Excel files well what do you do with them and we have to walk through

58:12 do with them and we have to walk through the things that they’re probably not proud of too that the way they’re like they have technical debt they just don’t know it and they may have their manager on the call to go no it works fine it just we have a few things this is a big part of our job to sell the ability to get get information you you you made an analogy I’m going to embellish on further okay service industry yeah yeah right you you want to get into the the great restaurant did you make a reservation right like these are the

58:43 reservation right like these are the requirements what happens during a reservation well they they get the key requirements what is the party size what time would you like to show up is it a special event I do you have children with you right all of these all of these things are not because I care about you like or who’s showing up it’s so I can prepare to have you have a great experience what happens when you show up with no reservation and high

59:13 with no reservation and high expectations guess what sometimes you turn away disappointed like you not getting a seat or if you do or the is too long yes you’re gonna have a one hour bare minimums right the business has to operate on it like this is how it is but in the same way if it’s a good restaurant what do people do you train them they have to show up with reservations or because otherwise they’re not going to get seated otherwise they’re not going to get in so

59:44 otherwise they’re not going to get in so what if somebody wants a report from you well they have to create a ticket and they have to get it estimated so that you can convey the results of like when they can expect their report whoa same whoa same principles whoa you just brought this circle we’re not fast food anymore maybe that’s maybe that’s the thing right we’re we’re not fast food we just graduated we’re we’re now Applebees where you at least sometimes

60:15 Applebees where you at least sometimes have don’t dare say my kids my kids would want you to say Olive Gard that’s moving company’s my friend so hey we’re a pop popular joint rocking like Olive Garden all the time hang up now I’m gonna have to I’ll even give you free bread sticks I’ve been to ol Garden a great if you work there I’m gonna stop there but there’s other things you can do well I like your analogy Seth and I think you’re bring it back really full

60:45 think you’re bring it back really full circle here around we have not talked anything around this article at all it’s been we we literally got stuck on Step One requirement Gathering there’s so much here on this one there’s also some good diagrams and documents I think we had to wrap it here on this one and want to come back for some more topics around the other solution panny actually walk through theirs requirements in their technical this is what we’re here for man yeah yeah yeah we didn’t even get to planning deployment that’s step two is plan the deployment but we haven’t even got to

61:15 deployment but we haven’t even got to that step yet because we’re talking about requirements Gathering the whole time but I think I think the reason why we’re talking about this so much is because we are this is this is a paino this is a hard part of this process and I think I think we all resonate with we’ve had many different experiences of getting burned on requirements in different ways and I think this will resonate with our listeners because I think everyone else is going to have the same challenge as they have been burned by requirements and you thought it was going to take you a week and all these other requirements get thrown on you and now it takes two weeks and now

61:46 you and now it takes two weeks and now everyone’s mad at you and you’re working extra hours to try and get this thing out in time because we couldn’t have a better conversation around Gathering the right requirements oh great topic all right with that any final thoughts Tommy no I love what you said because go ahead share this with your boss and say we’re going to do all of this and see how well you can sell that or there’s another all of the conversations we’re having whether we’re touching on it especially today why it hit such a critical I think pressure

62:16 hit such a critical I think pressure point for all of us is because we know there’s one thing to write it down it’s a whole other thing when you’re working with people and time and resources in order to be successful at this and our Focus today on when does requirement Gathering get in when do we actually have these conversations and how is just as important as any part of planning and any part of our object objectives SE any final wrap-up thoughts that you’re thinking through

62:47 thoughts that you’re thinking through we’re still open for business we’re just now taking reservations I like that we’re still open for business but now we take reservations I I would say in in Li of this one I think everyone should go get some ice cream scoopers and now for every meeting they should open up with a little trick or something when they scoop ice cream for I think Tommy has I like that one as well or if nothing else offer bread sticks when you have the beginning of your meetings that maybe makes them go well additionally anyways really good conversation I think really good stuff

63:17 conversation I think really good stuff here requirements Gathering is hard this is another great art article around some things you’re going to look out for some that you’re going to run into I think just knowing that this exists can help people figure out how to do a better job of of gathering the right requirements with that we really appreciate your ears for this hour of time it’s I know it’s you you could be doing anything else you could be you be doing anything else you could be actually doing real work you could know actually doing real work you could be going on your run with some pleasant music maybe listening to Ena or whatever you want to do but you instead you

63:48 you want to do but you instead you choose to spend your time with us so we really appreciate it if you like this podcast episode if you lik what we’re talking about here and this resonate with you let us know in the comments or share your thoughts on Twitter or other social media things letting other people know that you found this episode engaging and you like the topic here Tommy where else can you find the podcast we’re cheerful and we holler because we got a oh sorry wrong one wrong wrong episode wrong store you can find us on Apple and Spotify wherever get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton

64:18 and leave a rating it helps us out a ton share with five people you never know what happens do you have a question idea or topic that you want us to talk about a future episode head over to powerbi tips podcast leave your name so we can holler at you in a great question join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation on all of powerbi tips social media channels you could leave someone else’s name if you want to get them in trouble that’s that’s fine too yeah Tommy why are you asking so many questions on the on the on the Forum I don’t know how this is working anyways

64:49 don’t know how this is working anyways thank you all very much we really appreciate your time thank you very much and we’ll see you next time [Music]

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