The Value of Demos – Ep. 313

The Value of Demos Power BI tips is the focus of this week’s Explicit Measures episode. Here’s what was covered and a full transcript for reference.

News & Announcements

• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.
• Power BI Theme Generator — Create and download Power BI report themes using the PowerBI.tips theme generator.

Main Discussion

This episode is a practical conversation about the value of demos—not as flashy sales theater, but as a core tool for getting alignment and driving adoption. The team discusses how demos clarify requirements, reveal real user behavior, and accelerate iteration.

Key points from the conversation:

• Demos reduce ambiguity: showing something early surfaces hidden assumptions faster than meetings and documents.
• Prototype vs. production: how to demo responsibly without turning a proof-of-concept into a fragile ‘forever solution.’
• User feedback loops: demos create a natural cadence for stakeholder input and prioritization.
• Adoption enablement: people support what they can see and understand—demos help build confidence.
• Consulting reality: using demos to set expectations (scope, timeline, trade-offs) prevents painful surprises later.

Looking Forward

What are you trying in Fabric/Power BI this week? Share your wins (and your war stories).

Episode Transcript

0:24 welcome back to the exposit measurers podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone good morning and hey happy Tuesday gentlemen that it is always is just FYI this is a pre-recorded episode maybe a little bit shorter because we’re starting a little bit later here than we do to record things for for this particular episode so this will be a a slightly shorter episode but also recorded so just FYI audience you are aware or at least for those who join live we had a lot ton of listeners man

0:55 live we had a lot ton of listeners man who were doing their runs doing their walks I don’t know why you choose bi for that but hey well if you want to run away from something run away from our run away from our podcast it’s it’s good do you think we’ve made anyone lost weight I actually have a podcast that made no we have not everyone else everyone else has done it on their own let’s jump into our main topic for today so we don’t really have any intro introductions or news items for this

1:25 introductions or news items for this particular episode nothing some stuff maybe came out but we weren’t really paying too close attention so we’ll get right into the main topic today and let’s just do a kind an introduction on the topic and I think this is a fair topic because a lot of recent announcements from Microsoft from the Microsoft blog we’re now seeing the demos that were occurring inside the Microsoft fabric conference initial keynote the keynote came out there’s a whole bunch of demos that were presented with that as well so we were able to see some live demos or recorded demos of other features that

1:56 recorded demos of other features that came out from the service and so you came out from the service and so Tommy you’re questioning know Tommy you’re questioning this you’re saying look we have a business who has needs we have all these brand new features coming out some of them are in preview some of them are going to be are getting fully released public availability how do we how do we cope with that how do we cope with all these brand new features that are occurring and the balance of okay what does the business need and what skills do we have inside the business teams and

2:27 do we have inside the business teams and how does that align to these brand new features that are coming out so again as people who are engaged with the Microsoft ecosystem how do we pick which features are going to be useful to the business and then really align means features may be coming out that are not in alignment with what we need for our business to develop right so there’s also potential here we’re getting new things inside fabric that are not necessarily part of a business need yet maybe maybe not right now but

2:58 need yet maybe maybe not right now but do we need to know about it yeah I think you have twofold questions there right there’s the value of demos and should we revisit how important the art of the possible is showcasing with our team with clients and then the other side of that coin is what is this fabric rollout plan really G to look like how are we going to introduce the world of fabric to our teams and our organizations and I think demos will also play a big part of that

3:30 demos will also play a big part of that but how do we begin to step through all the stones with fabric as we get we’re farther and F farther away from GA now but as we get to more place where hey we’re goingon to adopt it what does the training what does the demos look like so that’s where I see it and honestly for me I’m G to just start with it’s high time to visit revisit demos again and I’m not talking about demos that I already have because we already have the product and the

4:00 already have the product and the solution the tooling already available and that everyone going to start using it today which is usually how most of my demos go or have gone here’s our product or solution team here’s your login information let’s go through how to do it and I think it’s going to be more important than ever with really once fabric really starts taking integrated in

4:30 taking integrated in really every team like hey there’s more than just powerbi here where not just for fabric but honestly working on demos for the art of the possible I think we’ve talked about this briefly before but guys what do your demos look like are they more here’s what we already have and this we’re going to use or here’s what a potential looks like so it sounds like you’re you’re breaking this thing into two questions one is what is the art of the possible as as it relates to demos or things we

5:01 as as it relates to demos or things we can do in Fabric and then your your second question you want to point out separately was what does a fabric roll out look like how does that roll out to the business is that fair to ask okay so in those two things let’s just talk about the phrase demo to me the art of the possible I’ve heard this a number of times actually in Consultants you show up and they’re like well I don’t even I don’t even know what it can do show me the art of the possible and I hear this phrase a lot and I kind disagree with the phrase honestly I think I don’t really like

5:34 honestly I think I don’t really like the art of the possible phrase because I feel like in a lot of cases Microsoft designs features and products and tools with a just a specific solving a specific problem in mind so my opinion here is when you say show me the art possible yes I can show you this very fancy elaborate report but you lose a lot of context of how long did it take to create it was there a graphic designer on the project that made it look very Snappy and sharp like yes this is what you could design

6:04 like yes this is what you could design but there’s very little context given to what people are involved how long did it take and do we need this on every single report I I think there’s the the way I’d like to portray this is business so let me just say this if someone ask for yes I’ll demo some fancy stuff no problem on the flip side of this I actually would rather say tell me what is challenging today in your business processes we

6:34 today in your business processes we can’t get this data we can’t get these reports out in time this thing doesn’t get scheduled like give me the business challenges and then me as the expert in the powerbi fabric realm will come in and say okay here’s how we would potentially solve this problem here’s two or three solutions that we can give you that would solve those problems so I think it’s more valuable to the business yes you need to understand the capability of what all the tool can do because you don’t know where to plug it in to your business on the other hand

7:06 in to your business on the other hand just let’s talk about challenges you’re having first just tell me what’s painful what is causing a lot of time where are people spending a lot of their effort and and and time against things because those are the issues we should be tackling and figuring out okay in lie of these larger challenges how do I go back and say how does fabric solve those things because Fabric’s not going to solve every problem the same way and you could potentially solve that same problem two or three different ways so talking about and and this is where I

7:37 talking about and and this is where I think let me give you an example so I don’t start talking so fuzzy here you have data coming from an API you’re Landing in Json files you’re taking those jsn files and you’re transforming them into tables then building a report on top of them I can think of about two or three different patterns you could use to go do all of that directly inside fabric hit a pipeline pipeline makes call pipeline unwinds call into a table right table down to Lake housee you could do the same thing inside data flows data flows can go reach into the

8:07 flows data flows can go reach into the data UNP Parts the Json flatten it out makes a table write it down to Lake housee or you can go to notebooks do the same thing make a call with a notebook get the Json return it as a data frame write it back down so there’s three patterns and so the art of the possible is well these are the three things you could do but what’s your team skill set are you familiar with pipelines do we have to learn do we have to teach your knowledge that so to me like I think the art of the possible conversation is kind of moo what demo are we talking

8:38 moo what demo are we talking about because that’s a great question to to me there’s two two significantly different types right and I’m confused as to which one we’re aligning to or maybe it’s both but I I tend to agree with you Mike around the the art of the possible thing where we’re we’re one demo type the one that

9:03 we’re we’re one demo type the one that is designed to wow people okay show them show them some of the big features or or big things that you would find impactful to the organization potentially or how your product differentiates itself from other products or just how far lightyears ahead you can do this thing in your tool your tool of choice right yep yep but to your point like those are

9:34 yep yep but to your point like those are great from a capturing attention standpoint yes but but I agree from the St like I don’t like them for two reason they serve a purpose and that purpose is engage lock like lock people’s attention in that in that direction but it keeps it at a very high level and ultimately like I should say typically the more you’re in these spaces you understand there’s Nuance underneath it’s not going to work exactly the way it was pitched right so

10:04 exactly the way it was pitched right so what are the two things that are happening here one you’re instantly losing context to how long things actually take to develop that thing typically right like you don’t just fall into these amazing reports that Miguel Myers builds and that you’ll find website and one that’s where I there it is here it is like you can go you can go to your computer and five minutes to wow take all your raw crappy data and it’s going to look like this

10:34 data and it’s going to look like this it’s not how it works I will admit the theme generator is a pretty good job with that though if you’re gonna pick a pick a tool probably gets you about as close to that as possible that maybe the one and one and then on the the other side of that is ah there was the losing context anyway I’ll talk about the other demo type there’s one other thing I didn’t like about the like the big product feature wow thing y but the other demo type is a how-to demo and I

11:07 other demo type is a how-to demo and I think to me those are significantly different because howtos are hugely impactful I think because it gets people it does a couple things in my mind it gets people over the fear of failure thing like I have no idea where to even start I like with all the fabric features for example right yeah all these new things are coming out I can read about it but I would have to go play myself right and

11:38 would have to go play myself right and rather than do that walking through a demo or having a video snippet of somebody doing a f- minute walkr yep you it’s the show me show me how this thing works and then I can visually see what are the steps that I need to take to do these new things oh my gosh that’s not that hard at all right and and that’s ultimately what I think is really powerful behind demos is it’s just a walkthrough it’s like hey come along for the ride I’ll show you how to do this

12:08 the ride I’ll show you how to do this thing I like I like your point there Seth because if I’m reading across LinkedIn or Twitter about people are putting out blog articles people will continually put out here here’s the thing that I did I I bookmark a lot of things I think more around the step-by-step demos of things that I want to either lock away in my mind and and we do a so Tommy and I and Seth we all we all contribute to this thing called jam. Community or jam. par. tips right so we have a

12:38 jam. par. tips right so we have a website where we find Links of things that we find are relevant we bookmark them basically and then share them with you so if I find things that I can bookmark and linkedin’s a little bit weird because it doesn’t quite it has to make you like log in to see this the content but most other websit just kind content but most other websit just let you see the post without having of let you see the post without having to be logged in I bookmark a lot of these how-tos hey look I’m making an SVG that has a shading to it that automatically Shades based on the highest bar in this table and so here’s

13:08 highest bar in this table and so here’s the ex here’s the original bar chart here’s the new bar chart with svgs behind the scenes and so I really like those examples because then I can see the thought process of what people can produce with certain visuals and then I can then have this knowledge library of okay here’s a bunch of things I know that are possible and I have collections of links that that helped me when someone asks hey could we do this yes you can it’s not out of the box here’s what you need to here’s what you need to go do it’s something similar to

13:38 need to go do it’s something similar to this and I and I guess that’s where I slightly concede the point of the art of the possible Right like you’re you’re stretching the bounds of The Wider General audience that is not nearly as broken as we are related to like wanting to be understand everything power behind in the things coming out or fabric so the art of the possible ranges into like Hey we’re going to show you some things you may not have been aware of or how to leverage these new features

14:10 of or how to leverage these new features so in that context I I guess yeah but I so in that context I I guess yeah but we’ve we live on that demo mean we’ve we live on that demo our user groups but different though I would say a user group is a different context than other things though right user groups are there to educate to some degree right yeah well so is what you just said too but I but I want to align more with like business objectives I think I think where I get a little bit more hung up is aligning directly between

14:42 aligning directly between what we’re trying to produce as a demo and then going after the business do I really need a a an a table that has a whole bunch of svgs as items in the probably not right my business objective more along the lines is I’m trying to just get data out of this table or I’m trying to get these couple visuals I’m trying to answer these questions about my data I think many of those pieces are I want to align to those things like let me give you another example there is a data

15:14 you another example there is a data activator which is interesting I’m not sure there’s a ton of use cases that I’m working in companies with that need data activator do I really want data to be moving constantly and constantly adding information into a report or dashboard I would argue most of the time organizations aren’t their data culture is not ready for real- time data to come into into report and the reason I say that is because I’ve had occurrences where if we refresh the data multiple times per day

15:44 refresh the data multiple times per day someone will look at a report in the morning and see that the numbers are different by the afternoon and without clear report design there’s not a little note there on the report that says hey data was refreshed as of this time so I feel like sometimes people are in the context of a day are expecting the data to be somewhat consistent and the data culture of the company isn’t caught up to some of the tooling features where we could actually do real-time data on things yeah but I think a lot of time regardless with the howto demo there’s

16:15 regardless with the howto demo there’s already something for you to play in or set up that’s already working right that’s always going to be the Assumption with the how to and we already can log in we’re just now letting other people down the path and again we that’s what we live on though but that’s those are things you’re trying to explain to people here’s what you can do with these tools and where they may apply in all those demos you’re already trying to you’ve already in your mind you’ve already framed here’s the problem you

16:45 already framed here’s the problem you descri like every time you do a blog post hey I’m trying to get data from SharePoint like that’s one of our main blog posts from our website right that is a huge topic so the problem is I have files I’m sticking them in SharePoint how do I get access to them that’s the problem I’m solving then everything else in the demo supports the answer to get to that problem so to me when I when I look at this demo things it’s a lot of it a lot of it is start with the problem work your way backwards and then here’s the

17:16 your way backwards and then here’s the demo when we’re talking user groups or things that are like net new content Microsoft is designing the whole let’s let’s talk about task flows right we seen we’ve seen the demo of task flows for Microsoft at fabcon that whole thing exists because there was a problem the problem is I’ve got and Tommy you and I had this problem we have too many artifacts inside a workspace and I don’t know what artifact is doing what I’ve got multiple lake houses I’ve got multiple computes a pipeline a data flow a notebook that are

17:48 pipeline a data flow a notebook that are lifting the data out doing something transformationally with it and then putting it back down in in our minds there is no pattern to how all these different literally looking at a list of items items we can’t sort them out and see The Logical flow diagram of

18:03 out and see The Logical flow diagram of what’s bu being built so task flows is intended to be this diagram that helps us mentally group similar items into buckets and utilize them to build out this sequence of pipeline of data makes total sense but in my mind the reason that demo exist is because here’s the problem a workspace just got too congested with too many things here’s a better way to organize it that’s that’s the answer to that problem and that’s where I’m going it’s like there’s a business problem that’s

18:33 like there’s a business problem that’s being solved but that’s I I think that’s where I slightly disagree just be like of course all these Technical Solutions are are demoing or showing like a particular a problem right this the the problem that you may encounter that requires this requires me to demo something to you because it’s a little convoluted or more complex is this is how you connect to folders in SharePoint right like because everybody’s going to do it sure that’s not a business problem it’s a problem

19:06 not a business problem it’s a problem like it is part of the features that we’re like we we deal with in a technical or business space and to me that’s significantly different than a business problem because that is that is typically more nuanced with a business need in mind and I guess like I’m delineating between like fact like the tooling that we use which is why demos are can be extremely useful and I guess

19:36 are can be extremely useful and I guess in the user group scenario what people are coming to do is learn about new like the features the howt the whatever so that what they’re doing is taking the context of their business and the problems that they have and learning how to solve them and is that part of the same thing it could it be exactly the same thing yes but to me there’s like Nuance

20:06 there I see your point and I I think mean I see your point and I I think maybe the maybe my my analogy of SharePoint and getting files from SharePoint is a big too simple around a business need right maybe the larger business need is I clients sending me files I have flat files coming in what do I do with them I got to get them into my report and then produce data back to the client right so maybe the maybe the business need is a bit larger than I’m just trying to pick up files from SharePoint so I would agree with you there but I just all I’m trying to convey in my point is I

20:36 I’m trying to convey in my point is I think there needs to be a tighter alignment between what are we trying to produce and what CH what thing are we trying to solve and I think we’re fishing what we’re fishing for is hey business did you had these problems or have you found these areas of what you’re doing in your day-to-day work these things are likely challenging you hey by the way fabric has introduced these new things features that can meet these challenges you may be already facing like in inside

21:08 facing like in inside like maybe another another example might be hey you are having data it’s getting larger Microsoft introduces incremental refresh and data flows hey by the way you can use this so here’s your your data flows are failing because they’re taking too long there’s too much data coming in by the way do we know we here’s a new feature that we demo to show you that hey you have the problem it already exists here’s something that the tool can do to then align with the solution so there

21:38 then align with the solution so there there’s a really important part here I think we’re talking about demos and I think to make a really clear distinction there is the simple training how to go to your settings type of demo again to your point there’s a problem I’m trying to solve or do like and I could either read an article or I could do the down or can follow this demo and I’m going to briefly put that to the side because I think the other type of demo is I guess more of the feature demo of course it will show you

22:11 feature demo of course it will show you the UI the navigation its goal though and I think that’s where the big focus is its intent is not that at by the end of that five minutes or 10 minutes that the user going be able to log in and do exactly that it’s the demo that’s showing the features in involve not and I don’t want to say the wow or the art of the possible but still there’s the either tool product or technology that we’re going to Showcase all the features all the different things that would be available to you or

22:42 things that would be available to you or is going to be available to you so let me let me make this a bit more tangible for me because maybe I’m just missing it still give me an example of what you of what one of those demos would look like what’s what what is a demo you would do that says that meets that need I think when scorecards first came out even think scorecards we I set up a demo again there going to be no one’s data we weren’t ready for or all the metrics but I set up a full demo to show hey just keep this in mind we’re actually

23:13 just keep this in mind we’re actually going to be promoting this all your metrics the problem that you have is not again where your settings are hey look at this thing called scorecards here’s what I can do in it so it’s not what one thing I’m trying to do it’s the things that I would be able to do and that demo worked a lot I was we were beginning to do different teams just so they understood what that what the feature was so we you can keep everything here look I can we can collaborate together and you can go to

23:44 collaborate together and you can go to all your reports so yeah is it solving one changing of the color folders no but that’s why it’s a feature based demo and those can really work especially from one thing for me trying to talk to someone about the technology oh yeah have this metric thing and you go to it then you connects all your things or I can show you and that can be a lot more powerful but again what I would argue in that demo that feature and this is maybe

24:15 demo that feature and this is maybe where my mind is just different at this point I’m looking at that going okay understand the demo of scorecards but isn’t scorecards there the design or the reason that scorecards showed up existed was because I have as a company I can have a collection of reports all across my organization or even just a workspace and I have a very difficult time of communicating kpis and measuring kpis against a goal there’s there’s an objective to be measured against what a

24:46 objective to be measured against what a number is saying from a report somewhere so it it takes so in my opinion if I’m building a report where goals or objectives or key alignments to the organization needs to be taken place RBI has no data input mechanism this is one of the only areas where you’re easily able to inject your own data either via data points or by typing in the numbers that you need so to me scorecards were here’s what I here’s what I’m supposed to be doing or

25:16 here’s what I’m supposed to be doing or here’s what here’s where I’m at right now with actual data here’s a a budget a metric a calculation that aligns to that so to me that that whole feature exists because because there was a missing aspect of powerbi that needed to be addressed right but this is something that you have to now convince tell people again like this disagree with you but there was a business problem I can’t take budgets or goals and align them to my existing data that was the problem so

25:48 my existing data that was the problem so again it was like it was like a broader I I go back to my argument earlier like cool feature neat demo but that still fits into the alignment of there was a broader business issue being addressed by the feature and so I think if we focus on the business issues and come back with here’s a business issue and here’s how this feature solves it I think it makes more resonation it resonates better with people consuming the feature yeah I would I would 100% agree with that and I think there’s certain elements of just what is the new feature are we talking about yeah I can now connect to a new source and

26:20 now connect to a new source and that’s a two-minute demo or am I talking about scorecards or now task flows or something that that’s a whole new feature set that Ires a lot more engagement or walk through or is something that could could drastically change in in a better way how I operate as a business or or how I deal with that certain thing and I think those are the more not the more interesting but maybe where the delineation between even

26:51 maybe where the delineation between even the types of demos that I was talking about right but I get I get go ahead I’m gonna push you on this one Seth would you agree though those demos are more successful or resonates with people more when you phrase out or start with

27:04 more when you phrase out or start with the phrasing of here’s here’s a problem we see in the business and then demo like at least stating I think I think any demo or presentation that you do that aligns more to solving a business area yep need is is more valuable okay when you can when you can do that right like if you think about this corre a lot of this ecosystem now all mashed together in fabric is a lot of different buckets of features that

27:37 of different buckets of features that people can plug into to to solve their problem right so if I’m going to go at nauseum I don’t want to I don’t want to poke this but I’m going to because this this water balloon may just keep going because Mike won’t be able to not talk about it I’m gonna let it go I’m gonna let it go impementation patterns right how how do I build a data pipeline do I use the lake house do I use a data warehouse do I like do I use data flows do I use whatever whatever whatever sure all of these are options and I think when you put them in the context of certain architectures which

28:08 context of certain architectures which are not just pre-built into the tool right those are designs that you use the tool to apply to right and I think when you you when a new feature comes out or there’s a new capability to align it to one of those strategies I think is really powerful is that specific to like a business objective I I suppose you could align that but it’s like this is how we’ve chosen to solve our business problem right it’s a technical

28:40 business problem right it’s a technical route or architecture that we’re enhancing for somebody and I think it resonates more if you’re like hey if you guys are using blah blah blah blah blah blah this feature is really impactful for you because this and this and this and and of course I think that’s going to resonate further than hey new feature this one does these two things right because then people have to solve it for themselves and I think in in large part if we I I get where you’re going like moving away from the just the

29:11 moving away from the just the demo aspect of this and how do we align all these features to the business is this is the Big Challenge I think that we have and we’re discussing a lot on the podcast which is what do you do with this flood of all these new features and how do they align to these different solution areas so that they can be articulated in in this way and I think that is something that like people are starting to do across the ecosystem you see a lot of presentations or demos of how to do certain

29:42 or demos of how to do certain aspects of things but there’s still going to it’s just going to be this continual process as all of these features are turned out at the pace that they are I agree with that one and honestly I think it’s GNA be even more too with we’re getting used to the UI too with fabric too like let’s not I know like we obviously are working with it but oh I would agree it was clunky in the beginning I didn’t know how to get to the right menu I couldn’t find how to make a data flows Gen 2 things weren’t

30:13 make a data flows Gen 2 things weren’t missing like I didn’t know how to click on the right things so I think this is very much demos to that we’re for really for the most part we’re not going to have a full you in most cases a full working solution that we’ve done for years like we have a really great data model I know exactly what you need this is going to be something like with the task flows right how many task flows exist exist today answer none how many G like be integral to what we do probably it’s

30:43 integral to what we do probably it’s going to be like one of those things people were either sharing or providing as a deliverable right so that’s that impact that we don’t have a demo for because it doesn’t exist yet so for me I think also when I’m dealing with non-technical people and I think this is my big push here for me when I’m thinking of a demo that I really want to push more in setting up is how can I conceptualize for you the user or the business forget all the fanyy words

31:17 business forget all the fanyy words and the resources we’ll talk about that but let me show you how much more easier your life is or what come on no I’m sorry keep going keep going no no no I’ll wait there because I’m I think I hit a nerve well I guess I guess my answer is do mean I guess I guess my answer is do that that’s fine but do it with a context of hey here is a potential challenge you’re going to face or here is a challenge that you’re going to use when you get into Fabric and here’s

31:49 when you get into Fabric and here’s here’s the problem statement here’s demo feature like like for example you say task clo which I think is really interesting one thing I one another feature I haven’t gotten my hands on or I need to play around with a bit more before I have an opinion on things is the metrics Hub the new metrics Hub that was announced by Zoey in the the fabric conference I think that has a lot of potential I think it has a really it’s really interesting from a hey we have we have curated certified data sets we have kpis and measures and sums inside that data

32:20 and measures and sums inside that data set with the appropriate Dimensions that we need to build something that the users may want right so bundling together a kpi or metric with a handful of Dimensions that we’re allowing people to to play with and certifying them and putting them in a certified space for people to go digest I think is incredibly useful yeah and so how so again I think I think as long as you’re saying look you frame part of the problem statement and then do the demo I think it makes a lot more sense and

32:50 think it makes a lot more sense and it’ll be a lot easier for people to understand like just and and again maybe maybe this is just my heartburn around what I’ve had people asking me around is what is the art of the possible give me give me everything that it can do and then I’ll listen to that and try and figure out where it fits my organization I feel that’s a that’s a lower hanging value or lower hanging fruit on the you value or lower hanging fruit on the it’s not as it’s not as impactful know it’s not as it’s not as impactful as here’s a here’s a series of challenges you may be facing you’re going to have a workpace with lots of stuff in it task flows help you

33:20 lots of stuff in it task flows help you f fix that problem here’s how it fixes it boom you you demo right here’s where metrix Hub fits in right you’re going to have a whole bunch of things you’re going to work at a central team they’re going to build good data they’re going to build good measures you’re going to need to share that metric across the organization boom here’s how you do it demo boom so to me it’s just a lot of that alignment of taking what we know as experts in the space where we’ve struggled right and saying here’s the struggle that we’ve dealt with and here’s a an example of where that kind

33:51 here’s a an example of where that kind here’s a an example of where that lives I think that to me adds more of lives I think that to me adds more value to the business so they can frame their mind around it now to your other point Tommy just doing demos like yeah I think there’s also a level of a lower hanging fruit here or that is around well I don’t know what I I don’t know what I need to know right I I’m not comfortable clicking around inside fabric I’m not comfortable making lake houses and making things run well that’s an entirely different demo that we’re talking about that’s more of that I think what you said earlier Seth it’s more of the how-to like I just I got to click the button so I become comfortable

34:22 click the button so I become comfortable with it what I’m still stuck on no go ahead what what Tommy do you not agree with that you have the beef quite a big beef apparently when I said just let me show you how cool it is so let’s dive into that no I your your phrase was how can I how can I get people to conceptualize the the particular thing that you’re pitching in the demo and and

34:53 that you’re pitching in the demo and and where I where I scoffed which you seem highly attuned to [Laughter] is how like let me show you how I make it easier for you and that like I I guess leads in could potentially lead into the same point that Mike made earlier which is like I think I think as business intelligence professionals or people that understand the it side and the business side that is a very slippery slope and you don’t want to

35:23 slippery slope and you don’t want to pitch that to business people without them understanding the level of effort that some of these features or what your demoing entails now is there a time and a place for that yes right like if you’re selling somebody on hey these are all the things that we can do look at how amazing this is and the things that are going to be easier are the decisions the insights you get afterwards like the automation the data cleansing like the

35:55 automation the data cleansing like the data Quality all of these things that these this package of demoed pitch provide to the business that is going to be easier for

36:06 be easier for you but I’m going to talk to a smaller group afterwards as far as like level of effort to get you guys there and that is a still a very I think valid point it’s where we just leave that off in that feature demo as an expectation that all this is easy that I think is disingenuous and a lot of people do it and a lot of people do it right like it it’s it’s how it’s it’s one of the things I I loathe about sales pitches because I I

36:37 loathe about sales pitches because I I you don’t give me all the details I need to know to make an informed decision what you’re doing is you’re trying to hit all of my yep buttons without any of the the negative side and that just it irritates me because I can’t make an informed decision I don’t know if it’s going to fit in my platform I don’t know if these features are directly aligned because you’re only giving me the good stuff you’re not giving me the bad and I’m not like maybe it’s just me because I know everybody does this because if you read

37:08 you read blogs where do you have to go technical documentation all the way at the bottom what are caveat what are the limitations because there’s always limitations right and that’s that’s do I have the perfect answer do you want to bring limitations into the an arena where you want people to focus on the the insights the better the the things to push forward no you don’t because then people latch on to that as opposed to but the Nuance there

37:39 that as opposed to but the Nuance there is the next conversation with the person who’s deciding how to go through things if one of those limitations is something that is not going to be fixed or is six months out that changes how fast a company is going to implement something because if it’s a Lynch pin right like say you don’t support a data source you’re going to support it but you don’t right now well that changes when I want to implement this new thing for the business because you sold me on the

38:09 business because you sold me on the impact what you didn’t sell me on is the implementation how do I get there right and if I don’t have that Clarity I think that’s that’s my sticking point in a lot of the look at the latest coolest newest whatever whatever whatever because I I think most people people are always looking for way like people in these AR Arenas if you’re going to conferences if you’re going to user groups if you’re engaged in listening and learning about the new features and updates you’re looking for ways you can implement this

38:39 looking for ways you can implement this into your into your business and and that’s the thing is like I don’t even know what I’m saying like does it belong in the demo probably not but it’s it should be somewhere in there but if we’re doing demos about like and and maybe that’s a Nuance if you’re pitching features and updates and insights and and you you’re trying to make the sale I guess not but I sure hope it belongs in the second conversation where it’s like the implementation but you

39:10 implementation but you can’t I can’t go from one to the next I can’t go if you’re going to sell me something and I go yep Tommy I’m going to do business with you and then the next conversation I have with you is oh yeah I didn’t tell you that this and this and this doesn’t apply to your business well now I just made a decision to go with you and you didn’t give me all the the details I needed what I’m saying so now I’m in a spot and for the record there’s nothing I disagree with with that I I think if you’re going in

39:40 with that I I think if you’re going in anywhere disingenuous yeah thing but I think a I don’t know if I’m gonna play devil that to get this late or just ask a question this late in the game you obviously have to preface any solution that you’re going to do whether it’s actually viable or and I think like I said this is both in-house too with we really want to push fabric on our organization this is what we really want to use you may not have the resources right now in order to do so or that’s

40:11 right now in order to do so or that’s where I’d like to take the conversation now is talking about skill keep going Tommy I like where you’re going with this yeah yeah yeah yeah so what’s going to happen and I can see this because it would be it would have been myself that I really want all the fabric things and my organization is either slow to roll it out or there’s a very tight squeeze on the cash or there’s some it things it’s not going to be like opening up a playground and and it’s like oh we can do the slide today thing the data synap slide

40:44 thing the data synap slide so yeah yeah ex this is a great point I think because I think this goes back to the conceptualized things well when you talk to people who are not in our space what do they think fabric is right like what is fabric to them and it’s going not going to be the same answer we have so how do we say business you can change the game inhouse we can build our data culture we can speed up time but we gotta invest in this thing called fabric let me show you

41:14 this thing called fabric let me show you thing and that I don’t know if that’s where you’re taking that but well I I like where you’re going with this one because I have seen this occur multiple times now because fabric has a different licensing model than what we’re traditionally used to with Pro and premium per user and premium per user doesn’t get the fabric things right to be very clear that’s that experience is still resigned just for the powerbi ecosystem of things so I think this is going to be a

41:44 so I think this is going to be a very useful talking point to organizations for figuring out does this fabric Thing add and I I’ll use a balance here does fabric add enough value to require the cost or the the change change in what I do in my internal processes to to make that spend difference right so to me there’s a balancing bar that or I’m think I think of a scale in my mind my mental model is there’s a scale if I can put fabric on one side of the scale and it it weighs heavy enough that it’s or it’s

42:14 heavy enough that it’s or it’s it’s adding enough value that I’m ready to move resources and training and and make a a mental move in my organization to go use it then the money is worth to spend and so so for a lot of the basic things of features of fabric it goes down really small we can get an F2 so to do a proof of concept to do a we have an area that is a struggle for us we we’re trying to get data from someplace we’re trying to collect it put it into tables I think fabric is a great opportunity to do a proof of

42:45 opportunity to do a proof of concept proof of value whatever you want to call it the the term that you want to use in your organization it’s a great opportunity to bring that forward and say let’s do a small thing let’s see if we can get it to work and does to your point earlier Tommy yeah this is where I think it it does make a lot of sense to have that conversation is did adding in adding investment into in fabric did it make our life easier did it give us data faster did it provide us more capability we didn’t have before and if the answer

43:15 we didn’t have before and if the answer is yes to some of those questions I think you then really seriously evaluate okay where do we strategically place this one until you start seeing the immense amount of value that this this tool brings to you and then you start rolling out across the organization so I think I I do think there’s some implementation planning pieces that need to occur here and I think that’s where you’ve go find guidance from people or you find do re you have to understand the tool enough to know where you can plug it in so it finds value and I think this is going to be a struggling point for companies

43:45 be a struggling point for companies because they’re not going to know always the best place to plug in the tool yeah I and and I would I I agree with those efforts I I think I think some of my comments fall into a different realm because I that like that leads to me like saying my my comments were more can I implement this like do I have a hard blocker do I have like what are the what are the critical elements of this new feature you’re pitching me or this new thing that I want to implement that sounds fantastic

44:16 want to implement that sounds fantastic but all of a sudden doesn’t work for me yeah versus there some weird thing I can’t do or something like that well I would even say it’s I wouldn’t even say it’s a cost thing like cuz to me that is I can ment it what are the choices I have like what is the value it provides to me as a business sure and and as technologist we’re like yes we wish everybody would have these tools because then we could go help every organization but there are licensing costs right but that falls into line with I think what you’re saying is you have to evaluate or businesses have to evaluate what is the

44:49 businesses have to evaluate what is the the value that it’s providing and and you can implement or start to implement new technologies like the whole of fabric to potentially architect new Solutions on and when you’re going through those exercises of R& D or trying to build something new on a new platform

45:06 to build something new on a new platform that’s where can I implement this Falls in right squarely that you you need people to be able to guide or show or at least be aware of when you’re implementing that new solution because at the same time I’ve seen many R& D projects go get passed off to devs that have no experience in the area and the whole thing dies because they don’t know how to implement it could they could they have yes they just didn’t know how so it dies right and the the flip

45:37 so it dies right and the the flip side of that is all say those new Solutions or architectur Solutions you Solutions or architectur Solutions work really really well you can know work really really well you can prove out the value then you can say hey this cost this is what we’re finding blah blah blah do we analyze and look at re-platforming our existing Solutions because the level of effort there that’s a good point resource cost or whatever us to this point on the other side so all of the sudden there’s a good business case for doing that I think that’s a really good point Seth because I find many more companies that are

46:09 I find many more companies that are coming from on Prem to Cloud are much more willing to adopt and accept fabric sure because it’s like it it’s the package deal it has all the things I need but where I see more hesitation is in companies that have already a solid footprint in something cloud and they’re looking at saying okay any new projects and and I think it’s honestly I think it’s much harder for an organization to split efforts between two tools right we’ve already built all this stuff in data bricks snowflake whatever the story

46:41 data bricks snowflake whatever the story has to be compelling enough to get me to move out of that solution and into a new solution and there’s there’s a huge amount of pain for having to run two systems at once I can’t stand running two SS at once it’s so difficult well in in many as specs I I think the choice however it was made to to land on Delta paret as a backend and one L like it was because a lot of the systems that in the B Big Data ecosystem all work within that very very well yes and it should be

47:13 that very very well yes and it should be very easy or I should say easier to leverage existing data sources yep for new Solutions and vetting out vetting out out fabric the story so I love that note and that I 100% agree it removes a lot of friction from companies wanting to adopt fic by saying hey just keep your data where it exists instead just create me a shortcut to where it Li lives and I I think there’s a story here and I haven’t

47:43 think there’s a story here and I haven’t quite fully flushed it out yet but there’s this I think there’s a very similar story that I’m in my mind I’m starting to fabricate around ha fabricate pun in pun intended I think there’s another mindset that I’m looking at here is let’s imagine there’s Central be who’s making a bunch of tables what happens when that business unit requests access to those tables how do we distribute that content to them with shortcuts this becomes incredibly easy here’s your own Lake Mr business unit and here’s a whole bunch of shortcuts to data that already exist in the central

48:14 data that already exist in the central like a demo starting already you use power querium page and reports that’s what you use that’s it well I know that will work in some situations but that may not work in all situations but my my point here is you situations but my my point here is I could imagine a world where know I could imagine a world where there’s like multiple teams all shortcutting their way back into the Central Lake one thing I haven’t tested out is when I’m using those shortcuts if I’m accessing that data which compute am I using from which workspace is acquiring that data because if I think

48:45 acquiring that data because if I think about Central bi I want Central bi focusing on making good tables and having that data regularly show up that’s going to need a different capacity units than it will be for a business to do a bunch of self-service stuff and charge them differently so there’s a whole bunch of Licensing implications and potentially cost optimizations that occur here by building out these Hub and spoke based on shortcuts and what capacity is being used when you leverage these shortcuts in different workspaces is it the capacity unit of that

49:16 is it the capacity unit of that workspace where the shortcut lives is that the compute I’m using or am I using the compute of the sourced Central bi team I think there’s a lot of implications here but again I really like your example there Seth because there’s there’s going to be multiple business use cases around the organization and now we have more tools to more flexibly give that and that the Delta paret format is essential to having all this stuff talked together super good move let’s do final thoughts here on this one oh sorry you want to say something else no my final

49:46 want to say something else no my final thought is like what’s fun about this I think is all of we’re we’re right now in in the giant cauldron right where we have all the ingredients just getting poured in and ultimately it’s the architectures and methods that we’re building like the the collective community and people engaging early with the tool are those like these are the the solutions that are going to be the demos of the future it’s a fun

50:18 future it’s a fun thought I I feel like Seth’s Double Double Toil and Trouble spending a cauldron of features for you and it’s cool I like it Tommy what are what are your final thoughts on this topic no I I think that our I love doing demos I I love being able to talk to people show them what’s cool and just like going step by step maybe and I think just like yeah what we said is I think we’re there’s gonna be a little more seat of our pants

50:48 gonna be a little more seat of our pants with some of the demos coming out because like I said we’re still discovering everything about it but that doesn’t make it bad and it doesn’t make it that we can’t show anything because we’re not there necessarily all the way there yet we have to in a sense how do you best preach fabric I think it’s gonna be through demos I would agree with that I don’t I don’t think there’s anything I think I agree with that 100% I guess my only request as I look at this topic and coming back to this one be is just make sure we State

51:18 this one be is just make sure we State the use case here’s the use case here’s here’s why you would want to spend the time or effort to learn this Feature Feature set or whatever and I think as long as we focus our use cases on solving real problems yeah 100% cool with it lots of demos makes total sense and do it it’s enjoyable it’s helps you I think demos do two things demos help one the user of the demo or the creator of the demos continue to solidifying their knowledge around what the demo is how does it work the tool itself so even doing demos for yourself or working

51:48 doing demos for yourself or working through small little exercises I think is incredibly valuable on the other hand I wouldn’t just throw a kitchen sink at something and just be like all right here’s a home new features without actually having like a real world problem we’re trying to solve or at least trying to understand as you’re going through the build of the feature what challenges could this solve and to me it’s a lot of like this what challenges should I be solving or if I’m looking at this new feature how does this make my life easier based on the new feature that’s showing up so with

52:18 new feature that’s showing up so with that I can’t wait till incremental refresh flows shows up on data flows Gen 2 that’s one that I really really want here recently so don’t know when that’s coming out but that would be one that I would really really much appreciate I just I’ll throw that throw that little side note in there as well well thank you all very much for listening to the podcast I hope this conversation was engaging for you I hope you are spending time either making demos or consuming demos from other people because I really do think that actually does add value to you learning the tool and figuring out how it works and potentially where you could apply in

52:48 and potentially where you could apply in your organization so apparently Tommy’s going to be doing a whole bunch of new YouTube videos around demoing features of these new things so I’m going to push them on this we’re going to make we’re going to make Tommy put his money where his mouth is and get more demos out for you so you can see how these new features are going to work dude I that being said yeah exactly I like the set up all right so we’re gonna hold you to it Tommy that being said thank you so much for listening we really appreciate your ears I know this has been a commitment of time hopefully hopefully your run went well you

53:18 hopefully your run went well you enjoyed that with that please share it with somebody else we really appreciate the feedback we really appreciate you sharing the podcast and let people let us know what you liked this conversation was there something that we said that you disagreed with we’d love to hear about that too so let us know on social media share what your thoughts are about the podcast we really appreciate that Tommy where else can you find the podcast man you can find the podcast on or you can find us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton you have a question idea or

53:48 us out a ton you have a question idea or a topic that you want us to talk about in a future episode head over to powerbi. com and finally join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation all of powerbi tips social media channels excellent see you next time

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