Role Shifts & Fabric – Ep. 318

Fabric is changing how teams work. In this episode, Mike, Tommy, and Seth talk about role shifts in a Fabric world and what that means for staffing, skills, and ownership across the BI lifecycle.

News & Announcements

• Introducing external data sharing: a new way to collaborate across Fabric tenants | Microsoft Fabric Blog | Microsoft Fabric — These days every company is a data company. More specifically, every company has data that can provide added value to someone else. And even more to the point, data sharing has become a common and essential practice…
• Announcing live connect for Power BI report integration with OneDrive and SharePoint (Preview) | Microsoft Power BI Blog | Microsoft Power BI — Last May, we announced the integration between Power BI and OneDrive and SharePoint (ODSP) that allows you to view Power BI reports directly in a OneDrive or SharePoint document library. Previously, this capability…
• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.
• Power BI Theme Generator — Create and download Power BI report themes using the PowerBI.tips theme generator.

Main Discussion

Fabric is pulling more of the end-to-end data lifecycle into one place, which changes how teams split responsibilities.

Key points from the conversation:

• Roles are converging: BI teams are increasingly touching engineering concepts (lakehouse/warehouse, notebooks, pipelines), not just visuals.
• Clear ownership still matters: even if roles blur, someone must own ingestion, modeling, governance, and the reporting experience.
• New collaboration patterns: the team discusses the need to “build a bridge from both sides”—data work and reporting work have to meet in the middle.
• Upskilling strategy: how to level up existing Power BI talent while adding engineering capability where needed.
• Process + governance: standards, documentation, and review become more important as more people can create more artifacts.

Looking Forward

Look at your current team and identify the biggest gap (engineering, modeling, or governance). Fill that first, then upskill the rest of the team around a shared delivery process.

What changes are you seeing in your organization around this topic? Share your thoughts and we may cover them in a future episode.

Episode Transcript

0:31 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone welcome back good morning gentlemen good morning Mike good morning Seth we’ve got a number of topics today we’re going to jump in with a rols or shifting roles inside fabric how that’s going to play out here a little bit so we’re talking about the roles in fabric that we see and what’s happening with existing roles in powerbi and what is happening as these things transition into fabric roles

1:02 things transition into fabric roles how does this is how’s this adjusting what people need to know or what should they know to be effective with fabric so that’ll be our main topic for today but before we do that we do have some news let’s jump in some news Tommy found some interesting articles so there some recent blog post announcements that I think we should definitely discuss and unpack here a little bit as well so first news item is introducing external data sharing a new way to collaborate across fabric tenants this is a fabric sharing feature that has just been announced by surle is that

1:34 just been announced by surle is that how you say his name yeah Surly shy trly try Taber let’s go me there’s an Sr so either it’s maybe it’s Sully suly I know welcome thank you for thank you for the blog post so Tommy give us a gist what’s going on here what’s happening with this new external data sharing so very familiar to external data sharing that we appr ly accustomed to with other objects in powerbi obviously now we’re

2:04 objects in powerbi obviously now we’re in the realm of Microsoft fabric so as easy as it was to share a report before externally with external users we can now do so with actually lakehouses we can do so with Microsoft fabric objects this is really cool and I I personally love seeing this because it’s right now public preview but it’s the ease of use right the setup the setup process it’s not extensive if you can do external sharing right now in powerbi

2:34 external sharing right now in powerbi you can get started with a public preview and I’m personally look forward to some of their things that they have planned but just I think it’s the easy use that really the part that’s getting me excited yeah and so thinking me of this one right I think this is all hinging on the technology of one Lake this is kind the technology of one Lake this is the one Lake technology portion so of the one Lake technology portion so you create data data is generated it is living in a storage account that is just a readon Delta table Yeah essentially

3:04 a readon Delta table Yeah essentially right so when you’re sharing this data you can create these data tables put them in folders keep them in one Lake it’s all in there and Incorporated so the idea is doesn’t cost you anym to externally share it it’s now in currently in couple notes here it’s currently in public preview so it’s it’s early so this will be very interesting also you’ll notice here there’s a new external data share UI in the blog post that’s talking about here’s the shared ID and then it’s showing you the location that’s being

3:35 showing you the location that’s being shared and then it’s also giving you an email address that is being shared too as well so I have to imagine there has to be some level of authentication of that external user showing up in order to be able to see the data so it’s not like a share like a publicly accessible endpoint it’s actually something that has been shared with the security of an email address and so I’m I’m curious to see how this email address Works the reason I asked this question is because last when we would share

4:05 share workspaces an external user had to be part of the Azure directory of your tenant in order to share the data externally so you had to be a guest invite you had to open things up there a little bit so I don’t know if this is the same the same experience I imagine I imagine imagine it would be especially since we’re dealing with one you can share directly from one Lake storage locations I imagine that there’s going to be you’re going to have to get that active directory approval if you’ve not done so yeah there’s also a link at the bottom there I’ll also put this in the there

4:35 there I’ll also put this in the there is a a series of Microsoft learn documentation pieces it’s a little bit more in- depth than just the blog post so I also put those in the chat window as well this is the full write up of the overview how to create it how to accept one what you can do to manage it and then what admins have to do in order to enable it so there this is not something that’s on by default thank goodness this is one that has to be turned on inside the admin port there is settings and administration level that have to do this as well Donald asks a question on this

5:05 well Donald asks a question on this one so is this a competitor to competitor to data bricks sharing Delta sharing which I believe their language of how they call it is a Delta share which is very similar actually because Del data bricks also has a compute layer that sits in front of their storage account they actually spin up a what they call I think in their language their documentation is an authentication server which authenticates users in and then allows them to see what tables of data that are supported inside datab environment some

5:37 supported inside datab environment some something has to validate a person to say are you able to read this or not in both situations so my Donald to your your to your question I think this is Microsoft reaching feature parody with data bricks at this point I imagine that level Microsoft Fabrics a competitor to everything including some of its own products yeah and I think also true also true the benefit of of something like this for fabric right in in its current state is it solves that problem where

6:08 state is it solves that problem where multiple ten tenants exist in the same ecosystem yep right so even for your own internal reporting Solutions and you internal reporting Solutions and technically multiple one lakes or know technically multiple one lakes or if you want to have multiple tenants you if you want to have multiple tenants to push know to push for super highly separated environments or you have you have business like multiple tenants just for various business reasons and the second is out external customers that are and and the caveat

6:39 customers that are and and the caveat there are that are using fabric correct right yep huge win for them huge win able to like to not have to pass data or have this other have this other capability now in terms of Delta Delta comparing to data brick solution right now like data brick solution probably still is a little bit more expansive because there’s no rtion on the the other end right like yes they they’ve got multiple methods to go access big data and and I think this is these

7:09 is these two solutions are very similar but it it points to a a large need that organizations have around data access right and it just opens the doors more for not only the platform that you may be creating internally but also externally because a lot of like there’s a lot of data and it takes a lot of time to extract them or extract that data using some of the existing

7:40 using some of the existing systems that there are right now like apis or whatever the the means of custom application data dumping Etc and with Delta sharing Andor now the external data sharing and fabric granting access to a data store could just opens the doors for the flexibility that you’re providing internally and externally it’s it’s a fantastic move and I’m glad to see it fabric it really is too the last thing I I’ll quickly say

8:10 is too the last thing I I’ll quickly say just because I’m looking at the improved features coming this is just the introduction is this is really the first step towards real data collaboration in Microsoft one of the big things that’s coming out that I think we’re all going to be excited for is the ability to share a folder of items which again we know that’s a ability and SharePoint but that’s that’s been huge for tenants for cons clients and Consultants B2B organizations and I think our ability to now actually collaborate with data in Microsoft fabric that’s this is a pretty

8:41 Microsoft fabric that’s this is a pretty big leap forward it may be understated but this is a pretty big leap forward for Microsoft and what we’re previously accustomed to there’s been a couple analogies so I think it’s very funny that Microsoft takes analogies from other products that they have and they trying to liken it to what powerbi is doing right so because this is so new there’s actually a lot of hesitation around being able to share data like people are nervous about this features right is it secure is it sitting at rest and encrypted how’s it being transmitted all these different other elements that are very

9:11 different other elements that are very important here and the reason these are top of mind is because I’ve been reading the Microsoft recently announced security white paper that takes all their security documentation and puts it into one massive white paper for everything which is Awesome by the way really good read would would highly recommend if you are an admin to go check it out and go read that but anyways going back to the analogies here Microsoft is continually saying oh powerbi is the PowerPoint for data you powerbi is the PowerPoint for data presentating presenting data in know presentating presenting data in this format feels like PowerPoint so they’re using other

9:41 PowerPoint so they’re using other products that people are very familiar with and likening the same experience oh one lake is just like one drive for your data well people understand what one drive is there’s a whole bunch of yeah files being stored places so they’re trying to give you comfort that the idea is everything is secure it’s all being designed in a way that operates similar to what products you’re already comfortable and and already using so I think it’s it’s interesting you take that that security view of that right like the the two things you highlight to

10:11 like the the two things you highlight to me are the simplification of complex things for for more people to use them yes right oh it’s just a one leg it’s just a folder

10:21 it’s just a one leg it’s just a folder that’s the same way you see it with one note like your your home drive link it’s the same thing like PowerPoint right like it’s it’s the same thing it’s okay I I get what you’re saying but maybe it’s a little different I I have orgs who are still scared to share bar charts across tenants so yeah we’re we still have a lot to go but that the security paper sounds really fun oh well anyway okay I don’t want I don’t want to get stuck yeah it’s right after hours so for those who are asking in

10:53 hours so for those who are asking in the chat I’m actually putting the security way paper that was just announced it was actually just written on 57 so two days ago the security way paper came out this is nothing new it’s not like a new security way paper it is new in the fact that it just came out but the the idea is this is collecting a lot of security items that are across all of the powerb ecosystem and giving you like diagrams speaking to it it it adds a lot of clarity to like when you say you’re coming into powerbi what is publicly accessible via a public API or public

11:23 accessible via a public API or public endpoint to access the information and then if you are how is it being secured and so so Microsoft has the zero U zero security policy that’s on everything so it’s everything is permissioned based on the user what can the user see once we identify who you are then you get permissions and you have access to what you need to have access to based on that user criteria which again this is a very standard com this is the same thing one drive is doing same thing that PowerPoint is doing all the other all the other services again and love these were already being applied to

11:53 love these were already being applied to parbi as well so I think that’s why I’m taking this this lens of hey you already you’re using this stuff you already have Outlook and other things that are already accepted as security surface areas this is just one more of an additional feature of those things so don’t need to be worried about it yeah I I I don’t did I think we talked about it or at least mentioned it before but there was there was a lot of confusion around the initially adding like one security or like the the new product of

12:24 security or like the the new product of security on top of everything that confused folks I think you jumping into fabric thinking there was none and it’s like no wait no like to your point right one I love the fact that you’re bringing this up and throwing the white paper out into the community right away because it it outlines and will show that no this is the entirety of the Microsoft ecosystem like this this is part and parcel of all the security that you already get it’s very secure like yeah of all the platforms you use right like they care the most about it typically so

12:56 they care the most about it typically so it’s all embedded and integrated into fabric the one security stuff is just add-on new ways in which you can yeah access and manage the system nobody weren Rogue I think of it this way like so right so what’s what’s happening and this is how I perceive this right so I think it was that build last year that they announced fabric is that right last year build which was around March time frame last year man it doesn’t feel like it’s been a lot longer than febc it’s been not just a year but it was announced then they they had announcement there also

13:26 they they had announcement there also they said hey One Security is coming and it’s I think how I think of it is one security is more of like a wrapper of like a complete Security package where it’s centrally managed it’s all in one place so I think of it that way as the idea is like there’s this common threat of security throughout and then giving you an easy place to manage it all so we haven’t really heard much language coming out from Microsoft about one security it feels like the story is changing a little bit to like it’s a complete Security package everything is built with security on it

13:57 everything is built with security on it and we’re giving you and what I feel like is happening right now is we’re giving you more and more deeper security controls like previously right you could use one leg but you can’t share it now we’re getting another security surface area that says oh by the way we can give you Delta table access to external clients and so now you’re getting like finer and finer controls at lower and lower levels around security which is I think really great I think that’s very helpful so anyways that’s my perspection on like what’s happening with one security and how it how it h how it changes

14:29 how it how it h how it changes all right there’s another announcement Tommy found Tommy found another one this one I think we’re going to have a way more conversation around Tom give us a second topic here yeah some powerbi like hey we have a Blog too don’t forget us we have data too yeah we’re doing stuff too there’s a little different this is now we we actually did an entire episode around this this was the ability to view a powerbi report in one driver SharePoint online this was already available something that you

14:59 already available something that you again was enabled by default the difference is now is we actually have the ability to see real-time data so if you have thin reports in your one drive SharePoint those reports are going to be updated if you open it in one driver SharePoint online with real time data which is I have no idea actually how they’re doing that or but it seems pretty neat and that’s really the big announcement here is really have the ability to live connect with any semantic model in

15:29 connect with any semantic model in the service that has this report so to be did you say import it was previously import prly available enabled by default that we think about so if you made a powerb report with Import in it they were able to put the file in SharePoint and then you could quickly click on the file and see it render there inside SharePoint so you’re you’re not all the things still apply right this is this is not like hey look I can do this without powerbi. com everything still applies here you still need a pro license you

16:01 here you still need a pro license you still need access to the SharePoint you still need all the things there but what they’re doing is they’re like rendering the report inside a viewer that lives inside the browser which is this is really interesting to me because this feels very okay in my mind I’m trying to think I’m a software guy I love software how did they do this like I’m I’m so used to having the rendering of a report live solely inside powerbi. com I can render a report visually right in desktop but I

16:31 report visually right in desktop but I know in desktop I have I have to spin up that model I have to I have to turn on analysis services and render their there must be some voodo they’re doing there where they’re doing some shared you have to quickly load that imported model into analysis Services you now have to have a a web viewer that shows up inside SharePoint that you can then just use I’m guessing this these are separate bits than what is in service and desktop maybe they’re borrowed but yeah because I don’t think it goes against your if you have a premium or fabric capacity does that go against it like

17:03 against it like oh is Services now in SharePoint like I don’t know if the next thing that I see is a slider of images that I can choose from we have come full circle it’s back back to the original incarnation of yeah SharePoint PI right right like maybe there’s a need still out there where you have folks that are completely locked into

17:33 locked into SharePoint and and that was the the original need that they were going but now we need to still support there yeah they would have to like this is scratch in the back of my brain where I swear I have interacted with a couple customers in the past where like everything they did was in SharePoint right like there are some companies that like live in some some of these app environments and they don’t want other applications like they don’t

18:03 want other applications like they don’t even bring them in for other people to use and maybe this is one of those situations where it’s so hyp secure right or it’s so the the information so volatile that like they’re pushing people into systems that they constantly track and they’re not bringing in additional apps or not allowing people to click into just what we’d see is powerbi service like yeah just go up there nope can’t do it maybe this is the solution for that I I Get There Are Places I’m like I know

18:35 Get There Are Places I’m like I know they’re coming to mind as I’m talking about them like they exist like like how is this 70% of the organization ecosystem population no no the places I’m thinking of there were very specific reasons why they were doing it and it was either a very hyp secure industry so not necessarily the data but the industry itself had it was so severely severely regulated right or very high levels of

19:05 regulated right or very high levels of volatility and data being accessible by people which is not the majority of companies yeah I’m just trying to get my head around like why like yeah why would it to me to me the thing is I understand it’s nice that it works right so I’ll say this I like that it works it’s nice that I can go preview files inside SharePoint cool interesting why why why would I want to push people away is why would I want to try to continue to push people away from powerbi. com that has like the

19:37 powerbi. com that has like the discoverability of other data sets the discoverability is describ no the difference to me is that I get the pushing towards other systems like they they do a great job with the embedding but why push people towards the embedding why the actual file because you’re not editing the file in SharePoint it’s only a view access so to me Mike I’m completely with you if you’re going to do a consumer like who first who’s the audience because if you’re going to do a consumer experience push them towards the other embedding applications if you don’t want a service

20:08 applications if you don’t want a service on the other side of the token if this is for the like the files are probably in a maybe a bi central location or department but I’m not editing it in SharePoint I still have to download the file on desktop to use it I I guess I I understand your point Seth and I want to go back to your comment reasons we’re doing this would be security and and what else were you’re thinking just where they they don’t want they’re not adding additional applications like sharepoint’s are the thing oh so

20:39 sharepoint’s are the thing oh so the just not going to use it you can do tons of creative like application building and SharePoint and process flows and this is just like there’s a lot of money that can get invested into like building things for the business and if this if SharePoint is your platform platform there are there are like I’m thinking of these places where they don’t like throwing in additional parts of the system or it’s a very laborious slow process because it’s got to get vetted

21:10 process because it’s got to get vetted it’s got to go through the process etc etc yep you the process etc etc yep it’s not it’s not by Nature like a know it’s not it’s not by Nature like a normal thing y but I’m saying like those ecosystems are out there for businesses for sure this is interesting you’re still utilizing the you still have in this new feature you still have to utilize the service they still need license yeah but you’re you would you would limit that right like the access to that would could be completely locked

21:41 to that would could be completely locked down frustrated people I think hey I like what you said Seth and I I just want to touch on one quick Point here as I’m as I’m testing this feature out like literally just going through my SharePoint just to I can see stuff I have an importer model it already exists it’s living in SharePoint there is a an ellipsis on the report that says version history that was already available oh so you can see the different versions in can’t see the different versions of the report it’s it opens a window on the right hand side and shows you here’s all

22:11 right hand side and shows you here’s all the versions of the status of this report when they were save what was the literally the same SharePoint feature that’s huge like to me that was what I feel like I I’m I feel like I’m missing that part in the service of power. com because I should be able to set as I’m having reports I’m sending them a full report every time I’m doing something it should keep versions of it for at least five versions two versions I should be able to set this set a version at a workspace level to me okay so I all this

22:42 workspace level to me okay so I all this aside the way they integrated the version history on top of files in SharePoint smart slick I thought that was a cool that’s a cool feature if nothing else I would use it just for that honestly is available man you’re bringing up some old memories I once broke a report I know it sounds crazy and but luckily he was in SharePoint and had like 50 versions and had to go back like report sales report 25 was open on my desktop like not this one yeah it saved me a couple times yeah

23:13 yeah it saved me a couple times yeah most certainly all right so good talking points I sent some links in the chat window so there’s some chat links here as well so if you want to go check out some other links to live connect views if you want to see how those are working there’s some other deeper documentation around what’s happening and what’s occurring here I will also say that in vetting or seeing reports rendered inside SharePoint you do need to have a a tenant setting turned on I think to enable that as well so that’s a a setting one thing I’ll point out here just as I as I’m looking at this feature I’m trying to put two and two pieces together so final thought here

23:43 pieces together so final thought here and we’ll move on when I look at these reports it does require me to sign in to the report so it feels like those reports are using the secure embedding that you would normally experience from power. com so it’s a here’s the file sign in it verifies who you are and therefore it can open the file and then know who you are and then technically it’s rendering it through probably powerbi. com services that have been builted onto SharePoint but through a

24:13 builted onto SharePoint but through a you do need to sign into to that file but since you’re already in SharePoint it just works so interesting you still need an an extra click to do it okay anyways all that being said let’s move on to our main topic Tommy frame us out here give us some main topic points here what are we talking about role shifts and fabric is the main topic here I feel like a lot of our conversations have led up to this episode I think that’s been something very passionate even before Microsoft fabric we’ve very

24:44 even before Microsoft fabric we’ve very particular on what a job role is around business intelligence specifically around the Microsoft business intelligence platform one of our earliest episodes was what’s a powerbi pro in two years I think maybe like episode 20 now with fabric we’re we have defined roles of the fabric career Hub data engineer data scientist business analysts but I think this is a good time as we’re seeing fabric really take shape to talk about where are roles going

25:15 to talk about where are roles going really from I think two Realms the organization level like how is an organization going to be willing to pay for a fabric Pro if that’s what they’re going to be called and what to make of us so to speak like we we already have established in other conversations that there’s no way one person’s going to be an expert in all things fabric just just not not a thing you may be familiar with it but to be an expert in all things fabric that’s not going to be a thing but what makes up a

25:45 going to be a thing but what makes up a fabric Pro now what are we going to be what are organizations going to be willing to pay for and how does that actually going to fit in organization so I’m really excited about this because like I said ton of conversations have I think led up to our conversation today so I I want to be very clear here like I do I do agree with you it will be harder and harder to find an expert on everything that is fabric because you’re asking for you’re asking for an expert in as your data Factory an expert in

26:16 in as your data Factory an expert in spark an expert in Dax an expert in data science data science you’re exp for an expert in streaming analytics like there’s so many topics so to be to be clearer this could be an entire field of study just by itself like all of these things could be like go to university or go to training and learn all these things this could be topics that could be covered quarterly for out four years and you now start getting like capable on all the things so not saying

26:47 capable on all the things so not saying that there aren’t PE I I think you you’re a little bit strong in your wording of like there’s never going to be a person that’s it that was not going to exist I think the answer is no I think there people will exist that will study and and become educated on all the things yes yeah but I think the number of them and can you do all of them really really well is going to probably be very very small amount of people and even in Microsoft you see them like specializing in the cat team like the cat team has specific people for like specific things they had it specific for powerbi I think of like you

27:18 specific for powerbi I think of like you specific for powerbi I think of like Chris Webb I think of like Phil know Chris Webb I think of like Phil semark they can span a lot of areas in there but when I think of Phil seark and Chris Webb I think Services models talking apis and things like that so it’s very technical in that space when I think about other people like Casper on on the Microsoft cat team I think security I think about the other side of things so that there’s I think there’s already even in their team there’s specializing team members that are really focusing in if I think power query data flows I think

27:48 think power query data flows I think Alex powers like so I’m already pushing my mindset of like their experts into different topics and that’s what they need because then they can pluck and tap that person on the shoulder and have them come in and speak specifically to that engine that compute that that problem there but there’s not there’s not like the person that you go to for all the things right so I agree I think it’s going to be like a balancing effect here but I think you need a

28:18 effect here but I think you need a minimum of knowledge of what it can do I think that’s a that’s separate to me because that’s you’re not going to are you going to pay for that and I think for me I’m shaping this this conversation or I’ve been thinking about this as it’s one thing to have a lot of the knowledge and to do some of the things very well but if I’m an organization and I’m G to either bring someone in FTE or a consultant I think especially I’m thinking the FTE here what am I going to be willing to pay for and what do I foresee that person doing

28:48 and what do I foresee that person doing or team doing I’m talking more on the individual here so I’m framing this individual but feel free to take it a different direction well I I would also say like too like if you want someone who’s going to do all the things you’re going to need to pay more money for that person to know all the things because one they’ve they’ve had to had time experience doing all the stuff building different solutions in it figuring out what works and what doesn’t work like literally the other day I was working around in git trying to create a workspace right it’s it’s one more

29:18 workspace right it’s it’s one more surface area like so I’m building a workspace on Main Branch I’m trying to create a secondary workspace on a branch a feature Branch I’m trying to build a feature branch and then merge it back in I’m having all kinds of issues like so unless you go through these challenges of like I’m learning like oh I shouldn’t name things this way because if I go this way it’s confusing if I go that way it’s not confusing so you have to have people who have experien who’ve made mistakes and so this is one of the I think early points I had in like November when fabric came out was a released GA I said you can have fabric

29:49 released GA I said you can have fabric out there but there’s not enough runtime on it I don’t know what best practices are yet I don’t know what’s the best pattern for all the different licensing options there’s MVPs are going to swarm onto this and they’re going to say here’s a bunch of really interesting things you can and cannot do with it but it’s going to be up to the community and and also Microsoft’s guidance to figure out okay what are some of the best practices to build things the way you want to for you I was looking at a challenge the other day to give you one clear one you can use workpac

30:20 one clear one you can use workpac managed identities there’s a workspace identity to handle security access to data systems right there’s a managed identity that can talk to data sources so that way if right now a user uses their identity to connect to a source so when that happens if the user decides to get promoted or wins the lottery moves on and that user is removed from your organization anything that the user touched from a connection string standpoint would break because that user is no longer existing it can’t it can’t authenticate them so this is

30:50 it can’t authenticate them so this is where the the workspace identity comes into place so you can use that instead of a single user cool interesting I feel like you’re proving my point a little because where there’s the knowledge and then you’re talking about the experience

31:01 then you’re talking about the experience one of the things that I I pride myself in and that I feel from a consultant point of view but just from a training is I’ve been through Dante’s Inferno of powerbi and one of the things I say like I may I feel like I’ve made all the mistakes around the powerbi platform because I’ve lived all those roles and now you’ve opened this up where I’m thinking of the movie quote from Goodwill Hunting where they’re on the bench he’s like you’ve read all the books but have you ever looked a woman in the eyes and have you ever loved her when Robin Williams is saying that like have you lived all the experiences Have

31:32 have you lived all the experiences Have You Ever Loved powerbi oh oh yeah oh yeah but experiences and I think that’s a big thing it’s one thing to have all the knowledge but we’ve been through the we’ve been through the ropes in all around business intelligence and all of a sudden seven worlds have been open now have you lived all of those and I think that’s part of being paid is also having that that experience the exper erience though right and that’s where I think the the

32:02 right and that’s where I think the the drive of this conversation comes from because the fabric ecosystem brings together a lot of tools right and and all of these roles right have played in certain areas there’s a bunch of different tools out there that that use them and I think what you’re saying is like oh just because they’re in the same ecosystem now does that expand somebody’s role exponentially and I and I C I have a tendency to be conversation

32:32 C I have a tendency to be conversation killer so hopefully I don’t not here but my my my my perspective has changed on this and I think it because it when we’re talking about fabric it is very it is fundamentally going to change how business intelligence folks and data is done in the Microsoft ecosystem 100% right and I I was on the train of of you like where you’re at where it’s just like oh we’re expanding in all these roles what what do you purch like what does a company purchase Etc and I’m I’m

33:03 does a company purchase Etc and I’m I’m sitting here I’m like I I don’t think fabric changes the roles of people what I think fabric is is a new tool and that new tool brings opportunities for people to learn really quickly the other areas but it doesn’t mean that they’re going to be playing in those areas if I’m a business intelligence developer fabric is an ecos system of tools that I now know how like I need to navigate so from a like

33:35 I need to navigate so from a like confusion standpoint right if I’m looking for somebody who knows fabric I don’t think I’m looking for a new role it’s not like I’m like I’m looking for a fabric bi Dev what I’m looking for is a bi developer and in their technical experience area I’m looking for fabric because fabric is the system of tools that Microsoft has created that these people work within it doesn’t change their role though right if I’m a b Dev

34:06 their role though right if I’m a b Dev I’m still going to be using pipelines I’m still going to be using Lakehouse or a warehouse or whatever I’m still going to be using powerbi and all that’s happened in the fabric ecosystem is now that’s just much faster for me to do because it’s all within the same platform that doesn’t mean I’m going to expand into the data science realm or just because it’s next door to the Lakehouse like I have to use it as a b Dev because that’s not my experience area that’s not my role that’s not what

34:36 area that’s not my role that’s not what the company wants me to do can I learn it absolutely it’s right there opportunity is more more opportunity it’s a click away instead of having to stand up a service figure out how that service Works plug my data into the service so do I think it opens the the the doors for people to cross pollinate or learn more about these ecosystems absolutely but I don’t think it changes the the role I I want to do a quick thing here

35:07 role I I want to do a quick thing here I’m GNA do a fun we’re g this great topic I want to keep going but I want to throw in a couple little fun ones as we go along here because Tommy said something about a movie quote where he’s adjusting it for parbi thankfully we have AI to support jokes and funny things like this as well so while you guys were having a serious talk I was actually going around and trying to make jokes for the podcast so here here’s what I’m gonna do we’ll keep this conversation going I’m going to slowly interject movie quotes adjusted for powerbi okay and you have to tell me what the movie it came from is all right here’s your first one oh this GNA be

35:38 here’s your first one oh this GNA be great here we go you ready all right I’m gonna make you an awful you can’t refuse clean integrate your data into powerbi reports Godfather Godfather one boom all right it’s good all right move on I got more coming I got 10 of these things get ready this is the dumbest thing ever two more do two more do another one okay hold on we’re already we’re already interrupting man already interrupting let’s keep going the distraction has happened my ADHD has kicked in all right here we go that was mine I’m going to try I’m going to try and be a little bit more this might be a lit harder you’re going to need a bigger lake house oh for

36:10 going to need a bigger lake house oh for that massive data set Jaws jaws that’s what it was nice all right Tommy wants one more and we’ll move on all right here we go do you think we need one more here’s looking at you kid and by Kid I here’s looking at you kid and by Kid any stunny powerbi report generated mean any stunny powerbi report generated from the powerbi data lake house my God here’s looking at you kid and by Kid I here’s looking at you kid and by Kid a stunning parbi report generated mean a stunning parbi report generated from the par lake house I can see the guy who says it oh boy we might have stumped Tommy in this one it’s not Rocky

36:40 stumped Tommy in this one it’s not Rocky no it’s not Rocky that would have been like I have a rock Pino thing I think so Pacino no no you you want the movie I want to need the movie Casablanca KAS I’ve never seen that movie so I didn’t know that one okay so all right I have some more I’ll C I’ll catch some more later but sorry back to your point Seth Seth okay like to transition bring back to your regular

37:14 program all right so I’m gonna I’m gonna agree with you then I’m gonna strongly disagree with you okay so the one thing I I really do agree with is for us I don’t think we see the roles Chang changing we see them expanding because yeah I I like the idea of the cross pollinating it’s just one click away but yeah there’s a lot of things we’re still going to be doing where I divide or where we where the split is in in my thought process is organizations however are going to have a different idea because the one problem we always see is

37:46 because the one problem we always see is they always have no enough to be dangerous I think this happened to us in the powerbi Journey in the last nine years you’re a report Builder build reports all of a sudden I’m doing have to understand the data modeling and we have to build up these structures because guess what the tables aren’t right and there’s all of a sudden so many other tasks that were expected of us not necessarily the technical side but just so it works and because they wanted it to work a certain way there’s a lot more that we had to do heavy

38:16 a lot more that we had to do heavy lifting that people or organizations weren’t aware of I think that same thing’s going to happen now it’s like well it’s fabric it’s powerbi so therefore you can Medallion you can do some data science it’s already there that’s powerbi now right and to me I think there’s going to be an just like any powerbi pro can tell you there’s un lofty expectations on that person the more they know or that as they continue to grow in their knowledge it’s like hey

38:46 to grow in their knowledge it’s like hey I’m learning this okay good you’re going to be responsible for this and I think a lot of smaller I don’t even say smaller organizations organizations with smaller or less mature business intelligence teams we still know organizations are still picking up powerbi today not all organizations have powerbi or even aware it exist so as we see people continue to adopt this platform they don’t know the resources that are required however to

39:17 resources that are required however to them oh look fabric one ecosystem to them that’s going to equate them to little to smaller resources but it’s going to be the heavy lifting to me it’s the story that we’ve already had with powerbi just on a much bigger scale in terms of un lofty expectations that’s where I defer is what am I going to be willing to pay for someone in Fabric and that’s going to be the general term so you’re saying because the marketing of all these tools or the the

39:49 marketing of all these tools or the the consolidation of all these tools for Microsoft products is fundamentally going to change the understanding of data in organizations they’re they’re going to they’re going to look for people who know fabric as the catchall word in the same way that they would they did with powerbi I’m not saying I like that or love that or even want that but I I think that’s a general I don’t agree with you technology I think what’s I think what was easy for powerbi is it

40:19 I think what was easy for powerbi is it or why powerbi got thrown into that kind or why powerbi got thrown into that bucket potentially is because it was of bucket potentially is because it was Microsoft’s reporting solution mhm right it was the competitor to Tableau and click and these reporting Solutions so the the danger or the problem with that was it was much more than that right under the covers you could do ETL you were creating semantic models and then by extension right measures and calculations and dexs which

40:51 measures and calculations and dexs which just takes things to the next level but what people didn’t understand was that played in the business realm just as well as the Enterprise because that was the tooling underneath the covers I I don’t know I I can’t say that I agree right out of the B the gate that because Microsoft is consolidating all of their analytics tools that’s an easy

41:19 of their analytics tools that’s an easy conversation like yeah you’re getting it’s all data all of their tooling across the platform is now accessible in the same place I don’t I don’t see organizations going well yeah it’s the reporting tool you well yeah it’s the reporting tool that you the reporting know that you the reporting tool I I still think there’s to your point Seth I think there’s a misconception from organizations that still think powerbi is just a reporting tool and even though disagree with you yes and I still think there’s so there’s still this language of like and again I don’t there’s even the language of like

41:49 don’t there’s even the language of like how do you say it right so there’s Microsoft Fabric and there’s powerbi so they’re two separate things but they’re so closely woven together so I’m finding myself saying powerbi or Fabric powerbi or powerbi fabric like it’s it’s this to me it’s the same har. com portal page but it’s now has all this extra stuff in there that is more so I agree with both of your points right so Seth on one hand I agree with we have the reporting tool that is its skill set and now

42:20 that is its skill set and now we’re bringing other skill sets into the same easy to use interface and one of the things that I really like about about fabric is how much friction is being reduced to use these other type tools like if you before fabric how it was difficult to get streaming data into stuff it it the the use like there might have been use cases but it was challenging to get the stuff turned on to to bring it in to get it created correctly to to bring the data into powerbi reports that barrier is becoming less and less challenging to

42:52 is becoming less and less challenging to get across right I I had lak houses but I had to go build them all in data bricks it’s an entirely different skill set and organizations that felt I’m a little nervous I don’t really know what the spark thing is I don’t know what a cluster is I don’t so the the idea that there is under the hood a very deep technical layer that Microsoft is trying to handle for you but at the surface you get this nice easy to use clickable and everything talks to each other I think one of the major advantages of fabric is everything communicates to each other and to your point Tommy I

43:23 each other and to your point Tommy I don’t think organizations are going to go out and directly hire someone well maybe they will some will some will try to hire the one person that does it all I think that’s a misnomer and I think that’s we’re still too early in the game to have someone who has enough experience solely with fabric to be able to say I know how to run all the things other than like I’ve gone through like I’m if you could hire the person who’s doing the demos of like how things integrate like they’ll know how to work at all but have they done any we haven’t had enough run time to put like real

43:53 had enough run time to put like real world Solutions into fabric we’re we’re we’re bringing other aure Solutions into Fabric and saying can I use those Solutions inside fabric okay fine but to your point set though I think I think the opportunity is exists if you are a bi developer and you are doing just powerbi you can just stay there and there’s then to me I’d like to think of like there’s an opportunity if I like what I’m doing and that’s what I’ve done with my career so far is I like what I’m doing in powerbi I thought this was awesome well there’s a lot of other Rich things to know and I love

44:24 other Rich things to know and I love learning so I can go learn lake house and Spark and streaming and all the other really rich things that are coming through with powerbi which is I think very exciting so to me as a as an employee or someone who likes to learn things I love stepping in this career because when we talked earlier it was like this could be a four-year field of study across all the things so and I think just the question that you just posed now I think goes to the Crux of the heart of my argument you said basically I think you said I think

44:55 said basically I think you said I think you can get away with just doing power powerbi correct and how funny that wording is if you took that a year ago where if you were to say it was only powerbi it was only powerbi but it wasn’t a very small thing it was adoption it was integration it was Data modeling it was report visualization it was scoping it was Data culture and we struggled with what what does that what does umbrella of powerbi what does that drive drive though the car it didn’t it didn’t drive no I’m not saying like what conversation

45:26 no I’m not saying like what conversation did it drive it didn’t drive like Hey we’re now talking about new powerbi roles I think it mean the conversation it drove conversation though was cost well when you’re talking I think let me go back to your question though you said what did it drive as I’m thinking about this now it drove some conversations around like centralizing where things how we report on some stuff centralizing that stuff I thought I think it also

45:56 that stuff I thought I think it also drove conv around part of it was who owns what data now what it was not driving was where does the data come from how do I connect to SQL servers all these connections like there’s no there’s no Central story of like where do we math roaches Maxum right there there’s no we had a lot of harder time conveying the message of we need to push these Transformations Upstream we basically had this powerbi thing that was like ah we could just do it with power query well power query will fix it and so we this model gold cement model correct and so I I think

46:27 cement model correct and so I I think that was our initial conversation what’s happening now is that conversation is extending not only just powerbi for our Central reporting governance distribution but we’re also saying hey by the way we want to push some of these Transformations out of powerbi and do a better job shaping data potentially making it easier for us to build and manage models so now we’re talking more about the back end and pushing things Upstream I think that’s more of a relevant conversation than we had before and I I think yeah go ahead no I think I

46:57 and I I think yeah go ahead no I think I I agree I think it’s different because of the capabilities of the tools right with powerbi it was a matter of figuring out where in the organization multiple different types of individuals would get value out of the same tool right and we’ve talked at at length and could probably talk at length more about how do we integrate with business users and self-service and how do we pull that into a structured technology perspective of business intelligence and big data

47:27 of business intelligence and big data models and all this stuff but that tool played between the ecosystems but it created the same type of confusing conversations that I think are exacerbated in fabric because it’s not just like the bits of tool that multiple people can use it’s entire environments that dedicated professionals use right so I I get why we’re having the conversation but if I extract the bit about roles

47:57 about roles I think all it’s doing is confusing confusing the or complicating the hiring process of the same roles because if I look right now even for powerbi if I look for a bi Dev and I say hey go recruiting goat firm I need somebody who knows powerbi they need to be intermediate level Etc what will come back it’s a huge mixed bag now of business professionals or analysts that have

48:27 professionals or analysts that have grown up in a business area that can like sometimes know powerbi pretty well sometimes know it at Advanced levels but if you ask them to write anything in SQL or understand a like the technical infrastructure pieces they’d be completely lost instantly because their whole world is Excel files right or I connect to a third party app through an API versus hey I have like more of a infrastructure old school bi

48:58 infrastructure old school bi role right we don’t talk to the business right I need to develop reports it’s all centralized these requests come in through product teams or product management teams there are full requirements we use jira there’s you requirements we use jira there’s sdlc there’s large large models know sdlc there’s large large models there’s SQL databases there’s Lakes there’s all this stuff those are completely different people that all both came in for a powerbi job so this is where Tommy I agree that there’s confusion but I don’t I think

49:28 there’s confusion but I don’t I think this is where you dig your heels in and structure what are the parts of fabric that are relevant to the specific roles and this is where it’s clicking in the career guidance that even Microsoft has on the community to some degree while we don’t align 100% on like the roles they chose they highlighted the particular areas and I think that’s where we need to go is we need to identify for the existing business intelligence roles what are those roles

50:00 intelligence roles what are those roles how are they going to interact or what are the pieces of fabric that they now have the capabilities to plug into extremely easily and if they want to Traverse roles like if I’m a bi Dev and I really want to get into Data engineering or I really want to get into data science though like I I can have a structured path and those things are a click of a button away that doesn’t mean that that’s my respon responsibility so like is it more important now for like

50:32 like is it more important now for like businesses to understand that you’re not going to get a a person who just end to end knows fabric but in the same way you wouldn’t say like these I don’t think they’re that naive right I don’t think it’s the same thing because to me it’s well known that fabric is the ecosystem of all analytical tools within Microsoft and it’d be like saying we’re going to the cloud Tommy I’m going to hire you cuz azure cuz azure [Laughter] right right like that the I I don’t

51:02 right right like that the I I don’t think those expectations are there and how we clarify the the role and role shifting in my mind is starting to solidify around this no I think we hammer in on the roles and figure out what parts of the platform are the ones that align directly with those so we simplify the message yeah and I I really like that because like my life since Fabric’s been out has been these other products and unfortunately at the sacrifice or at the expense of some of the powerbi things that I continually

51:33 the powerbi things that I continually did but pushing understanding to your point Mike we’re still figuring out all the scenarios

51:41 still figuring out all the scenarios that Fabric’s going to have and the Fab those scenarios that are going to be for large adoption scaling up Enterprise and those have been a lot of my projects that I’ve been working on or figuring out testing out just like you are with the workspace thing that you’re talking talk about these aren’t new no and it is new it but it isn’t it is and it isn’t it is it is and it isn’t right but saying in the realm of being integrated right and again for how would an organization now attack this rather

52:11 an organization now attack this rather than here’s your 18 subscriptions and on data bricks that’s all okay so all your all I I’m happy you’re learning new things what you’re doing is you’re expanding into roles that you otherwise were not aware of because you didn’t plug into those Services that’s fantastic fantastic this isn’t rocket science it’s not like Hey we’re we’re we’re talking about brand new ways except for new features right like they’re H but you’re right though capabilities of of what are being

52:41 though capabilities of of what are being presented at this current state and time are things that have already been in the business intelligence and analytics ecosystems it’s just been harder to do or been separated out by different Services I I am 100% on bardor with the consolidate it all make it easier but that doesn’t mean that these these same flows or everything’s going to change it’s just what’s changing is our understanding of how to implement it technically it’s it’s I don’t have to

53:12 technically it’s it’s I don’t have to spool up six services to your point I can click a few buttons and my fear and I don’t want to do Doom and Gloom but the lazy button is going to be it’s fa your fabric Pro and I think that’s going to be a it’s not it’s it’s expectation of the people who are already in powerbi and fabric to communicate there are different roles that are occurring here and if leadership doesn’t understand that that’s that’s why there’s all this Persona based stuff inside power. com okay hang on to that thought we we are at time for a couple more new movie

53:44 at time for a couple more new movie jokes all right here we go you’re dropping jokes into like one of the most serious conversations I Ser I think our listeners will really like this like this into that I’m okay with this okay all right here we go all right here’s another one all right you ready Seattle we have a problem my powerbi report isn’t refreshing because the Lakehouse data is down 13 Paulo 13o 13 nail it teth doesn’t watch any movies apparently so all right here this is one

54:16 apparently so all right here this is one for Seth ready here he go this one’s for Seth maybe I see data people data points that haven’t been loaded to the lake housee yet that’s good I I know the quote I don’t know the movie the movie the Sixth that’s the other one there Bruce all right let me let me give you one here I think I think Tommy will like this one try to life is like a box of lake houses chocolates life is you never know what you’re gonna get in your data lake house that’s good is that a good one

54:47 house that’s good is that a good one what’s a movie Force gum for there you go Tommy’s killed every single one of these except Casablanca you need to go was like 1925 I don’t even know I’ve never the movie so I don’t even know first movie all right anyways last last one here I think let’s see here okay let’s we’ll try this one now I have a powerbi dashboard with a machine gun attached to the side Yeehaw add Max no it’s a good

55:19 Yeehaw add Max no it’s a good Quest now I have a powerbi dashboard with a machine gun attached to the side Yeehaw ye IIA [Laughter] does that does that ring a bell my favorite Christmas movie your favorite Christmas movie what is it die hard do die die hard that was a little bit more obtuse there in the beginning so all right anyways sorry all right serious back on Hot Hot Topic all right dive back in rolls where were we I think I think

55:52 rolls where were we I think I think we’re at closing statement I think we are I think we are actually closing stat are you guys do guys want to do a part two with this or do we just wait another two years I think we could for sure argue about this a lot longer for 100% but maybe not right away maybe we wait a little bit and we’ll revisit maybe but I I do I think the points here are very valid and I think the balance I think you’re I think Tommy you’re saying the right things and I think Seth I also like your points as well we are not in a place where the users are getting more roles it’s it’s the idea that like there

56:22 roles it’s it’s the idea that like there is more ability for more roles to play together and I think that’s having a hard time delineating like what should I be doing and just because it’s easy to go across these different roles doesn’t necessarily mean I’m an expert in all of them nor does it mean those roles don’t exist they just now exist much closer together and I think that’s a really interesting point so my my final point on this one is I think I need to do a better job communicating there are many roles that now exist inside Fabric and there are skill sets that are specific to

56:52 skill sets that are specific to traditional roles that lived other places we’re now able just to have tooling that’s more centralized for all those roles to work together and thinking through what that looks like for your organization needs to be kind for your organization needs to be reviewed essentially I to your point of reviewed essentially I to your point Tommy I’m not going to go out and hire a fabric developer and expect to get everything out of fabric for one person I think that’s an unfair expectation I think it’s more important to say what are the appropriate roles that we’re trying to acquire or do throughout this process and make sure we hire skills specifically for those things now in my

57:23 specifically for those things now in my last thought okay go ahead my my quick last thoughts is I think this is a as good as a time as any for Microsoft to really go through and the establishing of what a role is I know they’re doing the four General roles in the career Hub but think about other other careers like Logistics there are actually levels in certain aspects like I’m Logistics manager one or three that are Universial across organizations I know what that means

57:54 organizations I know what that means this is a good times any as we continue expand the product in our access and where technolog is going to and I’ll be on the council I’m happy to have the conversation for FTE everywhere on what do these roles really mean and can we can we Define them can we have a better definition of the type of roles around business intelligence it’s no longer one road any final fin final thoughts Seth here or is it yes yes I am completely disagreeing with you to some degree

58:24 disagreeing with you to some degree there are not there are not there are not many roles in fabric there are many roles in careers that are that exist that we need to plug into the particular technology areas in fabric to clarify how they do their job in this new ecosystem I like that answer man this is a tough topic it’s good I like it I think this is inter we’ll probably revisit again all right with that if you liked our movie quotes

58:55 with that if you liked our movie quotes and thought that was extreme fun or you actually liked us talking about rolls in a bakery all day long we can definitely do that too so Enterprise AR says the goodness this episode has more rolls than a bakery I’m like yep it feels like an a feels like there might be a your mama joke coming here pretty soon so we’ll see I like Enterprises joke R Shaggy the database turned out to be an old man [Laughter] Excel yes and as the little

59:26 Excel yes and as the little head covering gets pulled off and it’s been Excel the whole time it’s been Excel the whole time oh no shocker believe it or not power doesn’t even exist actually powerbi is built in VBA and the back end is all Excel sheets every file gets loaded into Excel sheets behind in Microsoft hasn’t been powerbi it’s been Excel the whole time I didn’t catch the last one the last part of that old man Excel that’s really good Excel

59:56 really good Excel anyways if you enjoy these really dumb data data jokes and potentially some talking about actual roles and things that maybe make sense in your data career we hope you enjoyed this episode thank you so much for listening we appreciate your your ears and the time that we listen through this episode we’ really love it if you would actually recommend this to other people if you found this topic interesting or fun or engaging with the topic please share with other individuals as well we we’d love to get the word out about things that we’re doing on the podcast and also we want to

60:26 doing on the podcast and also we want to have more conversations around what these roles and things mean inside your powerbi or fabric ecosystem with that Tommy where else can you find the podcast we’d love love love to get your feedback on this too and there’s multiple ways to do so first you can find us on Apple and Spotify or wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe so you can get all of our latest episodes twice a week and leave a rating it helps us out a ton do you have a question idea or a topic that you want us to talk about in another episode do you want us to do a part two soon

60:56 you want us to do a part two soon well head over to powerbi. com make the thumbnail for this episode a a picture of Scooby-Doo with pulling the thing off with Excel underneath the the head but it’s doesn’t make it has no bearing to the rest of the topic so it doesn’t really make sense at all copyright copyright maybe maybe this be a one-off

61:26 copyright maybe maybe this be a one-off thumbnail that doesn’t have any representation of the actual episode because that joke was just so good is that that copyright who knows it’s on YouTube whatever it’s all we’ll figure it out it get demonetized later on anyways thank you all so much we’ll see you next time

61:58 you [Music]

Thank You

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• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ExplicitMeasures • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/explicit-measures-podcast/id1568949453 • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6kK8G1nPpQvQ0MyoVo9hw3 • Mike Carlo: https://powerbi.tips