Naming Items and Teaching Others – Ep. 349

Clear naming conventions aren’t just about aesthetics — they reduce cognitive load, make models easier to maintain, and help your team move faster. In this episode, Mike, Tommy, and Seth talk through practical approaches to naming and the habits that make knowledge transfer stick.

News & Announcements

• PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.

• Power BI Theme Generator — Power BI.tips - The worlds best theme generator for Power BI reports. Increase your speed to develop stunning reports using this free theme generator. Themes are essential for any report developer’s tool belt. Visit…

Main Discussion

Good naming is documentation. The team digs into what “good” looks like in practice (and how to teach it), including:

• Picking conventions that scale beyond a single developer
• Naming measures, tables, and columns so intent is obvious
• When to be strict vs when to be pragmatic
• Teaching habits: code review, examples, and repeatable checklists

Looking Forward

If you’re struggling with messy models, start small: choose a convention, apply it to one area, and make it a habit through review and repetition. You’ll feel the payoff the next time someone new has to pick up your work.

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

0:35 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone happy Tuesday gentlemen happy it’s another Tuesday it didn’t sound like a happy Tuesday Tuesday initially I gotta keep you on your toes Tommy okay things the same all the time then you then you get bored then you get bored I like the changes I’m I’m cool with that yeah all right everything’s ramping up we’re we’re hitting the end of summer now in the US here so end of summer is coming

1:06 US here so end of summer is coming the kids are going back to school Tommy you got a little bit of an opener but before we get to that our main topic today is going to be a mail a mailbag we’re going to bring a question from you the audience we love talking about these things and we’re going to discuss a bit more around communicating about what powerbi is and what terms or terminologies we should be using when discussing powerbi so that’ll be our main topic for today all right Tommy give us a give us a a news item here well I figured we are

1:37 news item here well I figured we are concluding the end of summer my kids are all all of them are back in school I had to send my kindergarten or my precare into the school was sad and I figured what’s better than movies during the summer it’s Christmas movies and then there’s summer movies we’ve talked about our Christmas movies so I want to know from you guys what’s what’s your summer movie of choice like like is this meaning like a movie that we watch every summer no it’s or just what did you watch this summer

2:07 just what did you watch this summer let’s say this let’s say when you think of Summer you you might not watch it every summer it may not even be your favorite but when you think of the summer what is that movie that’s a good question this year I movie that’s a good question this year get to be frankly honest I don’t go mean get to be frankly honest I don’t go to the movies very often we don’t we don’t do a lot of movie things it’s so comfortable nowadays with like we big TVs at home and you can just sit at home and watch stuff at your house so it’s more comfortable being your pajamas than have to go up and go somewhere I’m not

2:37 have to go up and go somewhere I’m not sure if I actually have a summer movie I guess maybe when I was a kid I think I watched The Sandlot a couple times yeah that was a pretty good one with the the dog and the baseballs and that was that was a Summer Classic I think for me I think I watched that a couple times that that feels summer to summer to me I I think that’s a perfect one that you stole mine because it’s only because of the quote that makes that such a summer movie the CL clout the cles of clout you keep saying her name but I

3:08 clout you keep saying her name but I don’t know who she is the great bambo the same guy I can see that one Tommy your quote that’s perfect any any summer movies that ring true to you Seth yeah when I’m when I think summer I don’t think movies outside of throwing all of the kids shows and like do Netflix in the morning while they’re W W Explorer it it’s so wild the difference right sometimes they revert back to

3:38 right sometimes they revert back to stuff that they were watching when they were five years old and like right now is like this puppy show where like like it’s a bunch of live dogs but it’s like narration over the top of them like the Puppy Bowl watch this when you were four the the only one we gave a shot and I probably as a parent should have watched it first because the recollection of it was so different than the actual oh no like yeah oh yeah I brought my my 10-year-old I was like oh let’s watch Back to the

4:09 like oh let’s watch Back to the Future oh yeah he started and then he was like I don’t like this I’m like I can understand why some adult things in there moreo type stuff and I was like true I don’t remember that part that’s a little similar to the sand lot too the drown I remember watching that I said oh yeah I remember that part now funny how those parts are forgotten but we we were it is fun every so often you go through old

4:40 fun every so often you go through old movies and you’re like well what about the kids have never seen The Goonies the kids have never seen ET there’s a couple big Classics in there and they’re like What’s at what is ET no ET his name is ET was an alien like they’re like we don’t want things about aliens that’s ridiculous I’m like okay all right I think that’s the age this is where you start becoming dad once you once your dad says this is a classic to the kid it’s like all right this is definitely old even if great movie yeah I do that a

5:10 old even if great movie yeah I do that a lot with music I’ll do a lot of music things like you got to listen to this song this song’s a classic and they’re like this is the worst song ever dad’s classic rock okay yeah my I’ve made my kids suffer through like some musicals right Oliver Twist they dig it they dig it like the old versions though like no you can’t do the new ones okay if you if you do the new one you got to watch the original I’m talking 1950s 60s really old come on no

5:41 old come on no okay yeah I but that those are like classic classic those weren’t class when you were a kid right no they were probably Classics when I was a kid too true since you took the sand lot I’m going to go with what we actually just showed the kids spaceship Jam the original oh the original space we did watch Space Jam this summer the new one for this for this summer we’ve never watched the original Space Jam that’s a good one it’s hard explaining who Michael Jordan is you’re

6:11 explaining who Michael Jordan is you’re like you should know who Michael Jordan is even is even true that’s funny yep the only other thought I have for like summer things summer for me when I was a kid was lots of swimming and going to the beach and hang it so we were like definitely a beach family we loved going to the beach it was close by to where we were that was a lot of fun that to me that’s a lot of fun summary memories so when I wrap our summer I think oh man we need to go swimming more like that’s that’s and finally it’s been warm enough that we can actually go swimming it’s in the 90s now which is unheard of up here in this

6:42 now which is unheard of up here in this area well not unheard of but like this is the time where it gets really hot it’s been really mild and rainy most of our summer it hasn’t really been really hot we’re having an excessive heat warning it’s going to be 99 today and right now the weather’s 75 and on Sunday that’s going to be the high I don’t understand this Midwest weather man it just zooms through watch out for tornadoes keep keeps it interesting yeah exactly awesome with that I think we

7:12 awesome with that I think we wrapped some news items let me do a quick beat from the street here I’ve been just working this is this is kind been just working this is this is fun for us to collaborate a of fun for us to collaborate a little bit on what projects are you working on and what are you finding that are interesting or challenges with whatever you’re building well I’ve been doing a lot more exploration a little bit around GitHub GitHub is now in preview you can do a preview on GitHub and connecting your git Repose directly to your PBI environment awesome really like it works I think fairly well I’ve had a couple get repos that I’ve been trying it works just like asure Dev Ops

7:43 trying it works just like asure Dev Ops you can check things in check things out get commits going pretty cool I did realize however if you’re in pia. com now you have the ability of creating so imagine you’re in a workspace and you’re on the main branch right so this is your this is the final workspace well you’re ready to start building a changes to it and there is a muscle memory thing you have to get to is if you have a get repo or if you have a workspace that’s on Main Branch you don’t really technically want to make changes there because you’re changing the final version of

8:14 you’re changing the final version of codee what you really want to do is cut a branch make your changes and then pull those changes back into the main branch well I don’t know when this feature showed up and maybe it’s been there for a while I just haven’t used it but now when you are in a repo or in a workspace you can click on Source control and there’s a drop-down menu on the ellipses and you can inside there there’s a little icon that has a branching icon on the right hand side and what you can do is in the main branch window you can

8:45 is in the main branch window you can pull the window down you can create a branch out to new workspace you can check out a new Branch or you can switch the branch I’ve never used the checkout New Branch Branch to new or sorry Branch out to new workspace feature before which I actually really like it was very useful and so the idea was is if you’re going to make changes you go to the workspace the dev workspace go in Branch out to new workspace boom it just builds everything it makes all the

9:16 builds everything it makes all the assets that you need chunks it all out builds all the connections done and then you hop into your developer workspace make the changes you want and then you can commit those changes back to that branch and then you can make a requests back through Dasher devops to pull those changes forward and merge them back to main branch so internally I have some work to do because we’re not we are app developers a lot on my team but we don’t have every bi developer building everything inside get at this point so we’re trying to learn some new

9:46 point so we’re trying to learn some new patterns here about how to build things you’re used to just showing up go to the workspace make the changes and save it that’s usually what you’re used to doing you don’t necessarily want to do that anymore I think my patterns are starting to change here a little bit anyways I thought there was a really cool feature really like that new workspace Branch out to new workspace feature and would encourage others if you’re building things on aszure devops or

10:08 building things on aszure devops or using integrated git repos to to use that a little bit so what’s the permissions on the ability to create a new workspace right because my first thought is that becomes a lot of tangled webs if everyone’s doing that so do you webs if everyone’s doing that so do the permissions of the ability to know the permissions of the ability to do that do I have to be I have to be an admin of the workspace in order to another work you just have to be able to create another workspace okay so you have to be able to create other workspaces but that but that makes sense though because now you’re building like a a a derivation right and this is this

10:39 a a a derivation right and this is this is purely this is purely for if you think about how powerbi. com is building things right part of the experience is people that consume data and consume reports and there’s the content creators this is purely for content creator people but I really like it because I can make changes or someone else can make simultaneous changes to the same things M particularly pipelines particularly data sets work reports and we can merge them back together so we can actually pull multiple people’s work

11:11 can actually pull multiple people’s work back together at the end of things once this is complete which I really do like that anyways really like the feature thought that was very useful and I’m finding value from it so I’m passing along to other people so they can find some value as well any other thoughts are you guys using or experimenting with using with customers with get repos yet doing devops however I need I need to send another submission to GitHub they suspended my account and they didn’t give me reason and I’m very very

11:41 didn’t give me reason and I’m very very sad so if you’re listening GitHub suspended your account on GitHub never heard anything like that before neither have I until that happened last week so all I wanted do all I wanted to do maybe they knew I was going to do everything with powerbi and they’re like we’re not ready for that or you’re you’re llms are taking over and they’re starting to yeah yeah all those large language mod you put on your computer trying to infiltrate the systems exactly right I accidentally rote an asent to go back to the GitHub

12:12 rote an asent to go back to the GitHub server yeah there it is accident I accidentally did something yeah no I’m I’m using it a ton with devops and and I love like I said I really do love the experience the same tune that I I’ll sing here is that we still have the problem with 80% of the artifacts are available with devops or with the git repository the add other 20% why would I use it for a full production if my data flows are not going through the process

12:43 flows are not going through the process or all of the artifacts I’m going to use I’m I’m with you 100% there there there’s you have to in order for this to and the other one so to finish off this thought as well as I’m moving code between different tenets between different workspaces one thing that I have found that is been very frustrating especially in the pipelines area is when you have connections each each copy activity or there certain activities in the pipeline that you need to connect other things and also when a pipeline

13:13 other things and also when a pipeline calls another pipeline right so you have one pipeline running There’s an actual there’s an action or an activity to run a separate pipeline to go do something when you do that when you have a pipeline that causes a dependency a reference an external reference is made and if you’re moving things between environments those AR those items don’t exist yet especially when you move like lake houses and other items the the IDS the goids do not exist in a different area so that actually creates some

13:43 area so that actually creates some problems there in that regard as well if we’re moving things around so I have definitely felt a lot of pain because when you move things between tenants or between different areas there’s a lot of goids you have all your your semantic models you have all your lake houses you have all the pipelines and pipelines that refer to other pipelines every single Connection in every single pipeline is also now different and a new guid so there needs to be a much more

14:13 guid so there needs to be a much more robust solution to be able to switch out all these things very quickly and have interdependent items in the git repos in a very easy to build way so I’m not sure how Microsoft’s going to solve it yet but I will say this it there is a lot of nice aspects of using it if you use it in a it in a very simple way check things in check things out keep it in one tenant and maybe make a couple branches do some development work and pull back in that makes sense it’s working very

14:43 in that makes sense it’s working very well I think in that respect but boy as soon as you if you don’t have access to connections it becomes such a pain to work with and so that that to me right now that’s been very very challenging oh other side note you can now edit a pipeline in the Json and the reason I say this was this was really useful as I was just trying to make some changes to a pipeline and sometimes you need to move an activity from like okay here’s the

15:13 activity from like okay here’s the activity oh shoot I’m getting some bad data I need to make an if statement to protect the data so it doesn’t do this action or whatever and you have to move the activity into an if statement you can’t drag and drop an activity into an if statement but I had all these settings I all the settings had a description I don’t want to rebuild the whole activity so I found that if you go into a pipeline go into the View mode you can now edit the Json scroll down in the Json with Monaco use the search

15:43 the Json with Monaco use the search command find the the activity you’re looking for and you can literally just Pop Copy entire sections of Json and move your activities between or in and out of different things is that a is that a supported feature does it say like edit code or is this just a I know it was you can do that but it’s not supported any we don’t want it’s it’s not intuitive I’ll say that it’s not intuitive that it’s there because you have you’re going to the view ribbon but you can yet edit the Json there so it

16:13 you can yet edit the Json there so it doesn’t seem like it’s supposed to be there but boy I really like the ability to edit the Json in the pipelines I’m I’m not am I will never write a pipeline from scratch using Json I will never do it check I you tomorrow but check it on Monday next week see if it still works feat feature’s gone it was an was an accident you you should check it Tommy go hop in your powerbi and double check that you go into a pipeline and make sure you can edit it I don’t yeah I don’t want my experience in Json to be

16:43 don’t want my experience in Json to be better than my experience with the user interface no that that could be that could be one of those if user Mike Carlo Carlo then and allowed to edit that’s why you bought the the that’s why you created a theme generator exactly right this in Json or yeah I’d love it if yeah I I will also admit I’m I’m actually getting more and more used to using yaml and things I’m really I’m liking yaml a lot more of wherever it appears it’s much easier to write that than Json it’s actually much

17:14 write that than Json it’s actually much simpler to understand the formatting of things as well also pretty cool anyways nerd things all right moving on let’s go into our main topic today Seth do you want to kick us off on our main topic and give us a a readout here on our our mailbag mailbag yes I yes I can I’m just wondering if the forcea thing is part of it no skip that part do you have any suggestion this this by the way this is this is going to be I I

17:46 way this is this is going to be I I think one of those conversations that just goes in circles but it’s G to be fun do you have any suggestions of how to educate individuals at my company on the proper terms relative of power Pi a report and dashboard are two different artifacts please stop calling everything a

18:16 dashboard I love how you said that and there’s more now it’s not just those things true we’ve got a whole bunch like and I think where I’m going to take this one is are there I think everyone thinks it’s just a dashboard and a report there’s like other thing like we don’t talk about apps enough we don’t talk about page reports enough and now there’s data Explorations that are happening in there like so there’s a lot of other things now there’s a lot of things and we can hit them all but I I I

18:47 things and we can hit them all but I I I guess outside of like obviously this mailbag being frustrated around reports and dashboards do you guys have parts of the system or like things that people use in normal conversation about powerbi that just irk you mine and and it it only started within like the last year or two oh is several organizations I’ve been part of in talking to people folks drop the powerbi or drop

19:19 people folks drop the powerbi or drop the power the power yeah and they just call it bi and it it grates on me so bad it’s like what what no like my team is the b and a team business intelligence analytics like yes we’re talking about bi but like we’re you that’s powerbi like what what are we talk why why do you keep saying bi why why but why so I get the frustration here especially if it’s like one of

19:49 here especially if it’s like one of those things that grates in you but that’s mine why why does this grate you though I’m actually I I I don’t know if I want to get on your bad side today but this is this is part of I think this is we started in the application it was powerbi and bi is anything bi is like Informatica business objects anything it’s what we’re doing yes when we’re talking about the thing I’m creating for you in the tool the tool is called

20:16 you in the tool the tool is called powerbi okay it’s not bi hey can you open that open that bi open bi open bi and can you go to that report that you built for me can you open bi my bi is not working I gotta okay that’s fair so because it’s literally like how you’re referring to like you’re talking about yeah it’s not powerbi it’s just bi and so I get it but like it feels like we’re in this millennial generation that just shs abbreviating like de

20:47 shs abbreviating like de in a little different than that you’re trying to over abbreviate everything oh yeah it’s de let’s go to bi please do not open that door man please do not open that door that’s where you that’s where you’re that you’re an old guy take it a little Ser a little more seriously this is something that I think I struggled with starting off my career in business intelligence and that’s appropriate right Seth I just want to make sure I can say I work in bu it’s a it’s a field want to make sure I want to make

21:19 field want to make sure I want to make sure that we’re using words appropriately here so working business intellig say words matter words matter also Jerry Seinfeld but anyways no s really yes which I reasons when I first started out my business intelligence career in 2015 people asked what do you do I said I worked in business intelligence and people would [  __ ] their head and go so what do you do and it still it wasn’t a very familiar field it wasn’t every organization had it so I had to come up

21:51 organization had it so I had to come up with taglines to basically describe what I did for a living and the one one of them was I analyze integrate and automate data like okay still too much still too much I know I was catchy is our platform but and there the other ones I basically I said baseball stats for grown-ups oh that’s a good one that’s another one that I had to use and all this time we’re I think the question comes still where we’re still in a re relatively new mainstream field in

22:23 re relatively new mainstream field in organizations not that business intelligence is new overall but knew that it’s part of every organization or becoming a mandatory department or field in an organization that was not the case in 2015 if you wanted to do business intelligence you had Tableau which was not business intelligence that was data analytics or report people people will disagree with you heartly solely on that mainstream mainstream mainstream not that it wasn’t of like it didn’t exist

22:54 that it wasn’t of like it didn’t exist I’m not saying that I’m saying the way it’s mainstream is to day when you think of business intelligence I I’d May I’d maybe go with that one I would think if we talked 10 years ago when powerbi before prob existed I think Tableau is definitely in the mix for visualization of things but I think business intelligence I think I think business objects I think sure tools that we can make cubes and and models of data and then we’re giving them to back to the business and then what happens to the business hey look business you can make all these great visuals and what

23:25 make all these great visuals and what you do what do you get a bunch of tables that I can export out because I don’t have access to data yeah but I’m AR we’re still in a very new field where one it’s it’s a it’s assumed that’s going to be part of an organization which was not the case 10 years ago and with that comes all the terminology so just my own career so that’s that’s where I’ll start off the conversation I would love to disagree with you but I don’t think I can yeah I don’t

23:55 you but I don’t think I can yeah I don’t think I can I I think I think I think there’s more awareness and I do think that the tools have surfaced up to a like powerbi allows for businesses to leverage data better but I I don’t think it’s like so can you call that business intelligence yeah do they understand it the way that like we talk about it or people who’ve been in this building data warehouses for the last 20 years no they

24:27 warehouses for the last 20 years no they don’t they have no idea right I do want to back up one second though sure and then like hold this thought because they’re probably more relevant I I can’t get away from this though so Tommy what do you what do you tell people you do now how do you describe it oh they say what do you work and I say I work with people who have dilemmas that’s that’s dementias dilemas I work with people who have dilemmas so they’re like everyone yeah because everyone has data because they see what because the common question I get now as consultant is what

24:58 question I get now as consultant is what vertical are you in what industry are you in like that’s I get that too what what industry do I’m like all of them everyone has data and that’s why I say any any industry with a dilemma because that’s usually what I’m coming in to do is work with someone’s data problem or work with some solution but this is the most common question I get still today is interesting I I lead with one word and that usually sets the context for the conversation because most most business

25:29 conversation because most most business users right they they they use a computer but do they know how to use a computer no not really right like they have some applications that they go into so so when I lead I just say I work in technology and then automatically automatically they’re like oh that’s the frame of reference that’s the context and then it’s like I work with in in that realm I like to think of one one foot in

26:00 think of one one foot in technology one foot in business I work with data business intelligence and they’re like oh okay D your descriptions leave me if I put myself in a business year TL like you work with what I get it so I a I don’t know I don’t know data what is I know yeah I get it but when you say technology I I literally just have the conversation last week with my sister’s cousin he’s like well you’re you’re an IT nerd guy I’m like no like yes I know technology yeah you are yes

26:30 yes I know technology yeah you are yes you are you are Tommy yes you are yourself sure I’m I’m not just buing servers okay I’m not there there’s a big difference in all the convers okay okay let me back up and this what a perfect way to start this conversation his own llms and he’s like I’m not a nerd I’m not I’m not a nerd at all no I’m I’m normal I’m doesn’t everyone have a llm in their back pocket yes I do I’m sorry Tommy you’re right not H okay

27:00 you’re right not H okay no I believe your hobbies determine who you you are I have a lot of hobbies that happen to be nerdy however no but I think what a great way to start this conversation where the question was about dashboards and reports and the three of us cannot get to a consensus about what we even do or what to call it no that’s just how much does that speak to the problem I don’t think there’s a problem here I I would I think it’s also difficult so my wife this is like a repeated conversation

27:30 this is like a repeated conversation that is happening multiple times mhm she’s like I’m talking to my friends about like you the women will talk to each other and they’re like oh what’s your husband do and she’s like data like she doesn’t sure so it’s it’s if you can describe your job well enough to give it to somebody else to describe what you do that you else to describe what you do that maybe that’s a good definition of know maybe that’s a good definition of what you’re doing and I don’t if you if you actually sat down and said what did I do well he goes to his basement in pajamas and sits on a computer all day like that’s literally

28:00 computer all day like that’s literally what that’s what I do I I think I I it’s hard to Define what we do and I think going back a little bit for forward in the backwards in the conversation here a little bit Seth you were saying look the accessibility of business intelligence to people is being and I I’ve said this before in the past it’s being commoditized it’s becoming less about writing SQL code and I feel like the for me again as a business user I started purely in Excel that was the land I

28:31 purely in Excel that was the land I lived in and so I’m actually in the chat here some people are Donald’s making some comments around Excel I I’m curious Tommy Seth would you call Excel art of business intelligence a business intelligence tool yeah yeah I would too I would call it an overlap but not independently or solely well but what is B so here business intelligence tool is it’s not all- encompassing it’s I don’t want to drive into like the semantics of business intelligence right

29:01 semantics of business intelligence right but but but but like if you’re that’s helping you make decisions with data is if right if you’re comparing Excel though to the value of that Excel document versus somebody who goes and builds a data warehouse those are significantly different things not disagreeing with you there 100% agree with that I’m just I’m just looking at it from like the business user’s perspective like what did I get to use earlier on all this data stuff was like hidden behind this veil of like someone else has got to do it it’s on these servers we got to build on PR machines you got to get access to it all this extra stuff to get

29:31 it all this extra stuff to get access to the data we need to do our decision- making so what has happened with business intelligence particularly PBI it’s become more commoditized it’s it’s in the cloud now I can access it at work and on my computer at home it can now it’s a lot easier to like the the horsepower on my computer I can load more than a million records now than just Excel stuff so I can move away from Excel the tools have changed and I think there’s just there’s more ability for me to to do more with what we have there no so by that logic then someone who says I

30:03 so by that logic then someone who says I work in business intelligence and I only use Excel would you agree with that statement no yeah I would mean you’re part of you’re part of the ecosystem are you take are you using a technology to shape data and drive insights that produce value to the business yeah shaping I think that’s assuming an Excel yeah dude formulas in

30:25 assuming an Excel yeah dude formulas in Excel seen them I know writing code all I’m saying all I’m saying is is that yes is is it in a way that you would want as an organization to like have the as the core piece and foundation for strategic reporting throughout your organ well no that’s where Things Fall Apart do some organizations do that yes is that dangerous yes High I do have to Sidetrack in the chat P Fair tale says Steve Wexler has the best job

30:56 Steve Wexler has the best job description chief chart looker at what do you do I’m a chart chart looker at Creator there you go yes or just a look better that’s funny that’s the other misconception too is we just build bar charts pie charts pie charts stick with stick back to what we name things like so bringing it back to like the question here right the word dashboards I think is almost irrelevant to me anymore I don’t I almost never use the word dashboards anymore and I still think a lot of people are focusing on

31:27 think a lot of people are focusing on the concept of dashboards so I guess what for me right how do you going back to the question how do you teach your organization around this one this is a cultural thing you’re talking about cultural pieces this is the way you’re however your company culture has been built before previously you just have to start pushing on it and start trying to communicating okay what is a dashboard and this Al sometimes this helps with using like a glossery or building one out in your team somewhere and you can start putting some of these terms down and I think what happens is you have to kind

31:57 think what happens is you have to kind think what happens is you have to really the the knowledge and of really the the knowledge and experience of your team is narrowed because that’s what they know right and this is also coming from other tools I have a lot of people coming to me replacing click with powerbi click has its own language around a page a report all these different things and there’s actually there’s distinctly different concepts in powerbi a report contains multiple Pages I’ve heard a lot of people just say oh just give me the report meaning a single table or a page

32:27 report meaning a single table or a page one page of data which we had these other features like drill through and all these other features that enhance a report to be a collection of pages that doesn’t necessarily translate to all other tools that are out there so there’s even like a language difference there around that as well it’s interesting you say that about you don’t use dashboards anymore because I I’m in the same boat and never use a dashboard yeah like because I to me it’s more misleading but honestly I don’t want to do a hot take so early but the the way that we build reports

32:59 but the the way that we build reports now the way apps can be like there’s a lot of times we have a executive dashboard or an executive report that’s a single page report yep that allows has those slicers that in a sense asks what a dashboard should be exactly right and to me if someone calls that a dashboard because again in when I was internally and what I do now with organizations we don’t push dashboards at all fine these dashboards are not an actual artifact in the organizations no one is creating dashboards no everyone’s

33:30 one is creating dashboards no everyone’s creating the report actually right and I I think the terminology here there’s there’s two there’s two segments here there’s the technical terminology that we need to use within other bi professionals or our teams yep and then that consumer lingo right the nomenclature the the common terminology where what’s the perception what a dashboard is to a user to a consumer that’s very different than me talking about a data flow or semantic model when we get into the nitty-gritty of the technical terms where I think

34:01 of the technical terms where I think they need to be very on point to the product regardless I look what Ben Ferry’s doing Ben Ferry is saying You must always use the actual names the tools using because you are trying to communicate if you ever have a problem with something you need to say the right thing so I know what you’re looking at because people will say dashboard all the day all day long and I’m like I I don’t know what you’re talking about you mean a report like and clar like you have like you’re saying dat but but I don’t I don’t know what are you trying to drive in your data culture like is it business business intelligence themes

34:32 business business intelligence themes and like is it is a dashboard the the concept that like listen we’re looking at a singular area these are rolled up visualizations and you’re you’re you as an executive or whatever manager should be able to look at this and understand the thing you wanted to that is wildly different than the technical what Microsoft calls a dashboard mhm so which one is most important to teach people and I think

35:02 important to teach people and I think called an okr and I think I think Tomy and I hate Tommy for you driving this point because it’s exactly my main point yeah right if a dashboard is designed to answer a single question monitor something on a high level and you don’t put it in the place that micros Microsoft calls it a dashboard and instead it’s in a report is it a report or is it a dashboard so what do you tell externally users go to this report you will see the dashboard on the first page and move on

35:34 dashboard on the first page and move on to the other report Pages which is the report just call it a m Mel just Mel just a monitor something on a high level yeah yeah you’re you’re not escaping this one with a joke my friend so come on it’s good it is pretty no I I agree it’s a good joke it’s a good joke your moal is complete your moales yeah that that will help no but I I I love I can’t first off I’m I’m stunned that Seth and I are

36:05 off I’m I’m stunned that Seth and I are agreeing so much in this podcast first time for everything I guess but I think Tommy you’ll throw something in here at the end that will make guarantee it I’m I’ll put my foot in my mouth at some point but but no but I I think there’s a lot to be said about that and I I think that’s completely okay again when you’re talking about the consumers because not that you adhere to whatever the the lingo is and you just say okay that’s what they say that’s what we’re going to do but again the perception of what a dashboard is to an executive is what

36:35 dashboard is to an executive is what Seth just said I’m not going to repeat the whole thing but is that singular view of my rolled up numbers whether or not that’s in the report for a user or in that dashboard that again we’re saying is a subpar experience that nobody uses right you’re going to lead to more confusion trying to push people to like no it’s a report in a report or a report in a dashboard call it the dashboard that’s what know and that’s what it is that’s why you built that type of view you built a executive summary view for that reason now this

37:06 summary view for that reason now this being said the one caveat I’ll say to all of this is whatever you go are going to call it you better have this documented because it has to be consistent right regardless if this is technology or what your business is calling it do you have a definition for this do you have your glossery of bi terms that you’re using for the organ organization that’s where the complication can come into play I’m I’m I think I’m going to I understand your point very much and I

37:37 understand your point very much and I get if the executive calls it my my executive dashboard I’m going to do my darnest or I’m going to try my hardest to not call it a dashboard because that’s not what it is in the tool I would really push for executive summary executive report kpi reports company summary some something along those lines that don’t have the word dashboard in them just because I think to me it becomes confusing because especially if you’re teaching people how to use powerb I get a lot of new users that are like Hey how do I use parbi

38:07 that are like Hey how do I use parbi well let’s let’s talk about first the components of parbi and honestly teaching where I’m getting more confused now is where does the line begin to start blurring between Fabric and powerbi because we’re now before it was content creators of data and then consumers of data that was all we had to play with inside the powerbi ecosystem well now we’ve added data scientists now we’ve added data engineers and now people are very confused on like what should fabric be used for and how do I best divide the

38:38 used for and how do I best divide the fabric experience into my organization so that most people or many people can build something inside fabric what does that look like there’s all kinds of weird edge cases and little there’s a lot more things you can do now and honestly I’m very encouraged because the Microsoft blog or the fabric blog there’s a lot it’s like Pages now every every month there’s pages of new stuff to keep up with it’s overwhelming to people especially if you don’t have someone dedicated to learning fabric all the time at your company there’s a lot

39:08 the time at your company there’s a lot of things moving around so anyways all this to say basically is I’m I’m not going to probably jump in and I will not I will do what the company recommends if the if the executive wants to say this is my executive dashboard fine I’ll name it but I will at least have a point that says look a dashboard is something different it’s a single paint of glass it’s a different feature let’s call it executive summary let’s call it something report and actually call it what it is and I do feel like

39:38 what it is and I do feel like having the word report in the name of a report is very redundant so that’s also something great that grates me very well like put dashboard why why would I put dashboard in the word like in the thing that is a dashboard like don’t it doesn’t make sense just call it what it is executive summary how often are are you you using a using a Microsoft dashboard in the powerbi service oh like a never I don’t I can’t tell you the last time I’ve actually even clicked the button to turn

40:09 actually even clicked the button to turn one on in months right so I guess I guess this is where there’s there’s a conflict in the argument right if if I have a part of a tool and I do agree it’s it’s extremely important and and yes audience matters but if that audience is interacting with wildly different

40:29 different experiences I. E 90% of everything I deliver to them is through an app and then I throw a dashboard at them and they don’t know what the heck that is or how to interact with it or like and I start saying No this is a dashboard not all the other stuff that you call dashboard this is a dashboard and this is the experience that you get with that that hugely disruptive right yeah so I I I do get it that I’m torn between the two but at the same time I don’t use

40:59 two but at the same time I don’t use dashboards so what’s more important to the business conveying that this report I’m building is is in this format it’s a dashboard report it’s you see what I did there put them together it was so inadvertent but it’s like it’s it’s a it’s the summer it’s the paint of glass that you want and need and I can do anything with that I can I can go to other reports from there if I want to I can drive different customer different experiences like

41:29 customer different experiences like Tommy was saying like where where it’s much better in terms of like okay I’m going to drop a slicer on here I’m going to I’m going to tweak the page alter the application page that I’m giving like that’s what I think we as developers love about the technical feature called report right in that it gives us all the flexibility that the dashboard does not there is a use case here though where that that the dashboard is as the technical object very useful is in cases

42:00 technical object very useful is in cases where maybe you need to mash up a ton of different reports and you’ve designed things in such a way that it’s like hey those those tiles make a ton of sense to just drive people into the report now I have a nice back and forth of like stting the dashboard now you go to the report I just don’t know of a lot of solutions that are using that nowadays and I think two other strong cases here Microsoft did not create the word dashboard in fact if you actually look at other articles that are non

42:30 look at other articles that are non powerbi when they say dashboard it has all the elements of what a report would in powerbi maybe a slicer it’s not the common dashboard that I see in Microsoft I think this is a big case when you want to talk about a universal word when it comes to data or technology as or as we call it dashboard is more considered it’s been around and it’s not just Microsoft powerbi funny enough I I did run the mailbag through the AI gamut Claude Google AI studio and chat GPT

43:02 Claude Google AI studio and chat GPT right together and one of the questions that came up I think goes along exactly what we’re saying is how do organizations balance the need for that technical accuracy with the desire for again userfriendly language to me the my big sticking point here is dashboard the word the con the concept not necessarily the word the concept of what of a dashboard is has been around much longer than the dashboard technology term in powerbi and when people consider a

43:32 powerbi and when people consider a dashboard they’re not considering it just pinned visuals from multiple reports and I agree with that because this all fundamentally goes back to the knowledge and experience of of the business users that are you’re interacting with and to Tommy what’s ter not terrifying but even further back if you if you bring up the fact that your point earlier was organizations as a whole still do not adopt business

44:03 whole still do not adopt business intelligence strategies and teams right where do you think that leaves the data culture of most organizations and and we’re trying to drive the semantic talk of report versus dashboard with this audience like they’re gonna call it different stuff right I think I think Mike you make a really you a solid point where maybe both are presented from the point that if a CEO is like Hey we’re develop like you’re we’re going from click we’re you you’re we’re going from click we’re into powerbi it’s

44:35 know into powerbi it’s important to note that there is part of that technical solution that could deliver a different type of experience to an end user and that’s called a dashboard experience and maybe that’s the thing it’s the dashboard experience yes versus it being a dashboard right because we we can build this concept the concept cep of what we’re delivering to you is in a very summarized form so we can call it a summary or we can call it a dashboard but just recognize that

45:06 a dashboard but just recognize that there’s something else that we would need to name and I think that’s where we you have to lean into as you’re trying to Define things for the really wider like the wider audience that they would have a reference point that like hey we can deliver things to you in this type of thing this is what it’s called right yes when we talk about Concepts or types of reports or or insights we can deliver to you you can call a dashboard but a

45:36 to you you can call a dashboard but a dashboard is a summarized thing right so if somebody’s because I do agree like you can’t have five different people calling things dashboards with five different meanings correct right like you have to I agree it’s important to standardize language around those those things and maybe it’s just a matter of an exercise of the people that are building the glossery of terms yes to name them differently like this is the

46:06 name them differently like this is the experience thing this is the thing that we’re we’re we’re talking about and this is why I’m going to lean in a little bit and say hey like just for reference you’re calling all this stuff a dashboard it’s not and there’s a reason why it’s not right so here’s my glossery page go check it out yes correct this is what we mean when I say a report right and it’s important that we’re talk talking about that because what you’re asking for is that deeper analysis it’s the brain it’s the whatever and yes we can have a summary page on there but that doesn’t make it a dashboard I and

46:38 that doesn’t make it a dashboard I and so I really like your point and how you’re pointing this out because I think there are occasions where if you don’t start using the right language as the central team and and this happens all I central team and and this happens all to be very clear this happens all mean to be very clear this happens all the time someone will start saying dashboard and you’ll slip into yeah dashboard and you’ll start talking to a report as if it was a dashboard but I think it’s important to delineate the the very nuanced terms there because for the reason being when people start going

47:08 the reason being when people start going around into powerbi. com and they start seeing the pin button and they say pin to to dashboard then then they don’t know what is the definition of actually a dashboard and so there is there is a reason why the dashboard exists the dashboard does exist to have real time like so a dashboard does something differently than a report does if you have a streaming data set if you have information coming in in a fast way the dashboard is the tool that you would use to show that real-time data without

47:38 to show that real-time data without having to continually refreshing your powerbi report so you can get reports to refresh within 5 seconds because that’s a setting you can do on the report level but that requires the report and Page entirely to refresh but Microsoft has demoed in demos like here’s a dashboard with a live camera feed and a live data set and and live data coming through like streaming things if you’re on the floor of a manufacturing area and you’re going to put powerbi up on a screen you really do want the

48:08 screen you really do want the dashboard because you want that data to be automatically refreshing and those visuals to be updating without having to hit Refresh on the page so to me there’s like okay when we’re saying I have to I feel like I just need the the language of Define what dashboard is and then even prevent present some here’s use cases as to why I would specifically use a dashboard now me as the Creator I’m going to talk about what you’re saying in reports so this is a report and even going through the idea of report and pages I think is always a good idea as well Kevin actually gives a really

48:39 well Kevin actually gives a really good example here U ke Kevin in the chat I I agree with this very wholeheartedly you can stylize your theme file in your reports to always turn off the icon to pin a visual to a dashboard you can turn that off so that’s even not exposed to users but at some point in time someone’s going to go through power. com and they’re going to stumble across the word dashboard and if and if I the creator of things is not using the language consistently I think it just adds a layer of again slight confusion I’m really picking that hairs here I

49:09 I’m really picking that hairs here I don’t it’s not going to break your company if you start saying oh we’re gonna we’re gon we’re gonna talk in dashboards but it’s not really dashboard it’s not going to break your company it’s just an it’s a very big annoyance to me well there’s the bigger picture here it’s not just dashboard report what’s the other frustration I think we get with terminology what I’ve we’ve talked about it’s usually what kpi and metric kpi and goals and those are constantly getting thrown around as either one or the same which they’re not or one doesn’t exist and to me this

49:41 or one doesn’t exist and to me this conversation goes is perfectly aligned with the kpi metric one which I would argue is more important than this one in terms of what can sabotage your your organization or what’s going to propel you from a data culture point of view I think with we’re regardless of which path you choose to me it’s about the naming conventions and having this written down in your knowledge Center or working with your center of excellence because all of this regardless you say we’re going to build dashboards and reports which

50:11 to build dashboards and reports which again when you say it does sound silly or whichever direction you go you one you better be consistent and two it better be communicated and written down somewhere and agreed upon all of this it goes into that bigger picture of whichever route you’re going especially with the kpis and metrics and especially if you’re going to use dashboards or not this can’t work just for me yet Mike and Seth are doing something completely different in my organization where Mike

50:38 different in my organization where Mike is building a dashboard and Seth is building a dashboard report and I’m not using any of them all of those are wrong if we’re all doing something different and it’s all gonna be right if we’re all doing the same thing and I think that to me is where this conversation really goes when it comes to what where do we go from here or where’s the solution it’s what’s agreed upon what’s written down and how do we actually communicate that it’s the it’s the written down thing too because like ultimately if if

51:08 thing too because like ultimately if if so thank you for the mail B question one of the ways you drive the change is by building the the glossery of definitions right you totally agree you normalize the definitions of these words and you make this the thing that you bring into the conversation every time because words matter right namings of things matter and rather than repeating yourself over and over and over again or fighting for definition word you do you build the

51:38 definition word you do you build the document you put it in the chats you you spam that thing everywhere because there’s going through that thing once is fine five times it gets tedious 10 you don’t want to have the conversation anymore and that’s where your drive changes you have the reference documentation you have the reference and then it also means that you you keep track of depending on if it’s just the team it’s easy but there are there are naming standards that you have to hold yourself

52:09 standards that you have to hold yourself to when you’re building these objects right so if you want to say that a dashboard is the business intelligence concept of combining these things a kpi is what we throw on these things here is an example of that right here’s what you can expect to see when we build these solutions for you right and then be aware there are like this is the tool you use right there’s a difference between like the ecosystem that’s been provided to us or the tool that you’re going to be interacting with

52:39 that you’re going to be interacting with here’s the definitions for the the thing the areas you’re going to find that are shared with you and what Microsoft calls them here’s our internal vacular and vocabulary around reporting in business intelligence and the importance for us to like all agree to this language is so that we can communicate effectively because data is messy man like the the last thing we need is to like keep throwing in the confusion of like what

53:09 throwing in the confusion of like what it is we’re actually trying to do on top of the business Logic on top of the you of the business Logic on top of the the tweaking the filters and the know the tweaking the filters and the calculations and all this other stuff right because that that’s the hard stuff and if we’re not on the same page from the the beginning yeah it creates conf let me go to the really hard question here oh all right you ready you ready for this one you thought this was a hard conversation between dashboards and reports all right is it a data set or is it a semantic model that’s an the

53:39 it a semantic model that’s an the easiest question of the day I still I gotta be honest I still mess that one up I’m trying as best I can to move over to the new language of semantic model it makes total sense they’ve changed the name on it but man I still call it data set all the time I’ve had years of calling yeah the model the data set and why I realized when I was working with the snowflake team how confusing that gets no no no not your data set my data set yeah so it was like no no the the actually it’s

54:09 was like no no the the actually it’s driven more clarity I think for me I AG because because semantic model is the art like the thing I’m building that drives yeah the reporting ecosystem in the parbi service the data set is the thing I build for you that you can go plug into on the back end like that’s what I’m that’s your data extract that is that is part of could be part of a semantic model but it’s like I’m I’m giving you some data on the side because there’s tons of needs for that too so I I want to ask you guys and I’m GNA ask you guys to do your best Second City

54:40 you guys to do your best Second City improv a bridge version but let’s say you are trying to change the terminology of your organization give me your a bridge version of what that roll out looks like right it’s one thing to have this conversation money in a jar you say it wrong it’s it’s put a put a dime put a quarter in the jar when you call it a report and it’s not the right or solid yeah I don’t know no I don’t know I don’t know how you all I would say is being as the as a leader presenting the documentation doing the demos you have

55:11 documentation doing the demos you have to continually I don’t know how many times you’re going have to say it you’re going to have to say it hundreds of times and like at least keep Wasing over people’s minds I think it’s little things I think how do you implement it is you push on those small things like okay the executives want a report they don’t want an ex dashboard let’s at least try to work with them to name it the right thing it’s let’s just go executive summary and just trying to use some of the some of the more generic terms there and try to communicate as best you can I like your point as well Seth around the

55:41 point as well Seth around the documentation should support should support the language you’re trying to use within the different artifacts so if you are building a knowledge base a center a location where you have here’s a list of all the reports and the documentation that goes with them useing that documentation the right terms reports semantic models that really helps that way people when they’re looking to look up information about it if they’re going to go search the site for information they’re going to see the word d reports and not

56:11 to see the word d reports and not dashboard everywhere anyways I think that’s how I think you roll it out you just be just be as consistent as you possibly possibly can Seth you got a you got a A bridged version no yeah consistency build the glossery if I if I absolutely have to you could throw some examples of what those things look like and then create naming standards in development like which in wider self-service right is more challenging but at the same time I can’t I can’t expect people to know what I know unless I put it somewhere that

56:41 I know unless I put it somewhere that they can reference it because it like changing behaviors requires that somebody makes that part of their normal cycle and you’re not going to drive that change unless it’s it’s written somewhere that somebody can reference somebody until they know it then as well I love it I have a hot take I think to end this out here and I I feel maybe I’ll go like three for three with Seth maybe we’re gonna have a perfect game of agreement I don’t know or is this a strikeout what do you I don’t know how that works strikeout or we’re gonna end in in a fire either a

57:12 we’re gonna end in in a fire either a home run or a strike out I crash all right here go here’s our hot take if you want to sabotage your bi initiatives use in precise language I’d agree with that that’s I would and I wouldn’t sabotage is a bit of a the wrong word for me hot take it’s a hot take yeah it’s a hot take it’s good hot take I I would say I wouldn’t use the word sabotage but I I do think for take you have to agree or I know I it’s got to be this this or nothing I would I would change your question slightly because I don’t ever listen you slightly because I don’t ever listen this I know I know I can do what I

57:43 know this I know I know I can do what I want to do I’m fine I R my own departments it’s good no big deal I do what I want to do I do what I want if you if you want to Inc if I if I had to Res another if you want to increase clarity use consistent terms and to your point Tommy if you want to increase confusion and not be as consistent yes use mix your terms up so I don’t I don’t think you’ll I don’t think you will kill your department however I do think people will be more confused and less satisfied with the out with the output of the product at the end of the day we’re we’re in the

58:13 end of the day we’re we’re in the service industry your bi department is serving the rest of the organization and trying to get them data and information they need if you think about let’s try and build the best experience for them that way they want to come back and play ball again that’s that’s the right approach like we’re we’re in the service industry so think of it that way and try to figure out the best way to communicate to your team and frankly if your company just says that’s what we’re going to do it’s going to be a dashboard that’s what we’re gonna fine I’m not gonna I’m not going to push you too hard on that but okay be aware in the service you’re going to see these

58:43 the service you’re going to see these things called dashboards let’s when you when you encounter these words other places you may be confused what we’re talking about yeah right 12 out of 12 Tommy I totally agree with you yeah let’s go wait a te question question [Music] [Music] ship good today with that we really appreciate your ears this has been a a very fun conversation really enjoyed it so thank you all very much for listening participating with the chat has been very vibrant thank you very much for all the words that you use at your companies about talking about things in

59:13 companies about talking about things in powerbi and we hope that this helps Revitalize or re-energize you for being excited about being consistent with your naming and and how things are working there so if not good luck you’re you’re a your department will fall apart and you will not have bi officially so if you don’t if you don’t do this right just kidding it’s that’s not true with that we we really appreciate your ears and we would really appreciate it if you would let somebody else know that you like the podcast so please share if this conversation was interesting to you engaging and

59:43 interesting to you engaging and was helpful for you to go to sleep to or go for that run with we really appreciate you sharing with somebody else and letting them know that you also enjoyed the podcast Tommy where else can you find the podcast as always you can find us on Apple Spotify wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton do you have a question an idea or a topic that you want us to talk about in a future episode head over to powerbi. com

60:19 thank you all so much we appreciate you and we’ll see you next time [Music] [Music] out