Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced - Ep.368
In this episode, Mike and the team discuss Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced - Ep.368 - Power BI tips—what it is, why it matters, and how you can apply it in your Power BI work.
News & Announcements
- Fabric October 2024 Monthly Update | Microsoft Fabric Blog | Microsoft Fabric — Welcome to the October 2024 Update! Here are a few, select highlights of the many we have for Fabric this month. API for GraphQL support for Service Principal Names (SPNs). Introducing a powerful new feature in…
- Learn about Microsoft OneLake Delta table integration in Power BI and Microsoft Fabric - Microsoft Fabric | Microsoft Learn — Describes using Microsoft OneLake integration to automatically write import data into Delta tables.
- PowerBI.tips Podcast — Subscribe and listen to the Explicit Measures podcast episodes and related content.
- Power BI Theme Generator — Power BI.tips - The worlds best theme generator for Power BI reports. Increase your speed to develop stunning reports using this free theme generator. Themes are essential for any report developer’s tool belt. Visit…
Main Discussion: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced - Ep.368 - Power BI tips
The conversation dives into Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced - Ep.368 - Power BI tips, including practical considerations, common gotchas, and real-world tips you can use right away.
Looking Forward
Try one small experiment this week related to Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced - Ep.368 - Power BI tips—then iterate based on what you learn. Small, repeatable improvements compound fast.
Episode Transcript
0:34 good morning and welcome back to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good morning everyone sorry we’re a couple minutes late this morning working with technology things wer things weren’t connected and things were not working and doesn’t let until right when you’re hit ready to go live so okay great good job UI designers you’re the worst I am very frustrated with this app and how it does not make it easy for you to do things has it reached the end of its life cycle Mike I I feel like you go
1:05 its life cycle Mike I I feel like you go in waves with these things like you like them at first and then is it is it the apps that just morph and change away from what works or or is it you get bored with it just move on yeah you’re bored with it no I I really I you’re bored with it no I I really honestly I really like this mean honestly I really like this application that we use to stream with we use restream as our platform to stream out to simoc cast multiple channels I like it it’s been really good they just did a major update in the last couple months and I’ve been complaining about it for like the last month or so just how it they changed the UI my
1:37 just how it they changed the UI my workflow or my pattern on what I was doing previously no longer works I had to reinvent my pattern and I think when you’re trying to do things live and like you have your set pattern of things it’s hard to design a software for when you have like hundreds if not thousands of people doing things slightly different their own ways and maybe maybe I’m just misinformed this is one of these these situations I find the same thing in powerbi with the filter paint people have been happy just flipping along using slicers eating up page space and all of a sudden we show up with the
2:09 all of a sudden we show up with the filter paint I’m like use this this is the only thing you should be using now because it’s so much more powerful and it is but it just it takes time to learn it and like use it and figure out the best way to implement it on your reports anyways all that being said welcome to the podcast our main topic for today is going to be a mailbag we’re going to going to talk about the roles and identifying when people are leveling up so talking about what is a beginner what is an intermediate person and an advanced person and maybe talking about the different levels and this
2:39 about the different levels and this could be across any role maybe in fabric architect report developer data engineer what do we see are skills of those individuals at those different levels with that let’s jump into some news Tommy you got any news for us oh we have some major news Microsoft fabric the blog monthly update that’s probably 45 pages I’m actually gonna test this out it is absurdly long which is good that means a lot of things are happening so if I make a PDF out of this
3:10 happening so if I make a PDF out of this we’ve got we’ve got ourselves hopefully I don’t freeze my computer so yeah if you have not checked the Microsoft blog we have over oh my goodness we have 100 P 65 pages of pages of updates nice all right well let’s go through all of them right now for news that’s going to be our podcast awesome so a few major ones guys I don’t know if you saw things that
3:40 I don’t know if you saw things that caught your eye personally Mike I I think they they’ve heard you a little there’s some developer enhancements there’s some major notebook enhancements I like it yeah that’s the one I’m actually very interested in there’s a so we’ve had these apps for a long period of time and there’s now a new object I believe called an org app so you can have so I guess previously we would think about it it was we’d have an app of a workspace that would have reports or things in it
4:11 that would have reports or things in it and you would publish it from the workspace and it would be a mirrored copy of the workspace what you have one app one workspace how it was initially Built Well now there’s like an item called an org app and now you can build an org app directly in the workspace and what they just announced was they now said a notebook is now allowed to be available inside the org app which I’m very excited about I like a lot of the notebook experiences when I do training now I really enjoy writing U markdown and instructions and adding pictures and images and all it
4:42 adding pictures and images and all it can tell a whole story inside the context of a notebook so the new feature for notebook in an org app is very exciting to me I’m looking forward to playing with that I haven’t had a chance to really dive into it but I think this is really interesting and very rich you can actually have visuals and things directly embedded and a rollable page that is now just the or Gap with a notebook that’s I’m very excited about that I’ll put that in the chat window just for other people to take a look at it I think this is a really neat feature and now with org apps I believe
5:12 feature and now with org apps I believe you can also I think this is the implementation of this as well is you can make four five six or apps off of the same workspace so we now can build different versions of an app and then users can distribute them and they show up just like an app in the the app location previously which is cool one of the cool things too is with the or app there’s four now ways of you a notebook which I’m really really happy that they’re doing so mode
5:43 really happy that they’re doing so mode switcher mode switcher now yeah feels a lot like when you’re in edit mode or View mode in a powerbi report exactly exactly so this is pretty important so there’s that View mode readon access just need to view it edit for read and write people can only run it but they can’t end anything else and then there’s this develop mode so they’re you’re right Mike they are trying to make as much as possible notebooks much more user friendly and accessible yeah one the C some of these
6:14 accessible yeah one the C some of these are I think Reger just consolidating some of the pre pre-release notes we got right that we’ve talked about a little bit one that catches my eye that I don’t think we have that is new to this is the enhancements to the PBR r format yeah they’ve enhanced that now by adding the additional features where you can publish a PB report from a powerbi desktop downloading a PBX file using a PBR format from a workspace and uploading a PBX file using PBR format to
6:46 uploading a PBX file using PBR format to workspace that’s pretty important download a PBX file using the pbir format from a workspace I really like that one and then publishing a PB directly from desktop that’s going to be important I think I think this is really closing the feature gaps on a lot of the PB pbir so for those of you who don’t understand or don’t know the pbir powerbi report is an ability for you to store all the report objects as single small Json
7:16 report objects as single small Json objects it’s actually way easier for you to go make edits or changes or manipulate the report because it’s all a lot more human readable text just written inside the format of the of the for of the reporting inside the the format of a folder for reports I love this thing actually this is what we use we are using an older version albeit but we’re we’re looking at updating our theme generator so our theme generator can also now build report pages and designs and all this extra stuff that you can do around the port side well we
7:46 you can do around the port side well we use this pbip format and now the PB format is what we use to build out your your templates inside our we call it a theme generator but it’s actually kind a theme generator but it’s actually more than a theme generator now it’s of more than a theme generator now it’s like a designer so we should probably start changing the language of our report theme generator and now change over to calling it a designer wow anything else that stood out to out to you few things with powerbi there’s this only like maybe three items that are just powerbi bfic there’s this value
8:17 just powerbi bfic there’s this value filter Behavior I don’t know if you saw this so when you’re filtering multiple columns on the same table the current default value the behavior takes the filters combines into one so so considering only the combinations that exist we’ve seen this before so they basically have a few updates to this to actually actually show in in the decom tree is what you’re saying in a table so let’s see yeah so let’s say you’re filtering a two a
8:48 let’s say you’re filtering a two a table and two of those fields there’s some combination before some people I’ve heard this there’s a little wonky it almost looks buggy because it would remove those combinations but the the count would be different so now there’s a new control basically to look at the value filter behavior in properties whether or not you want to either have it automatic independent which forces the filters of the table to be kept separate or they will result in
9:18 separate or they will result in combining them into one so I honestly think that a lot of people have dealt with this this bug with multiple filters on the same table so I’m glad they’re getting extra control over them you’re talking about the modeling feature for value filter behavior is that what you’re describing yep yeah that one’s another one another one that I think was announced earlier which I I haven’t had again I got to be honest I haven’t had a ton of time to play with it but the info. viw data analysis expressions in Dax that’s one that is
9:50 expressions in Dax that’s one that is very interesting to me as well this is going to allow you to create documentation inside your model by creating a table so you can evaluate info. view. taes and get all your tables and items back which is nice so I kind a neat feature there as well anyways I think those are all the main announcements I think a lot of good stuff a lot of little details here and there I am excited for it yeah definitely definitely worth a perusal of the top level features it’s
10:22 perusal of the top level features it’s it’s always a a long one to check whether or not oh man there is so much there’s some new stuff that helps you out well a whole bunch of things now more in preview so that we’re expecting that preview list to get a lot longer if you’ve heard us in the last couple episodes we’ve been talking a lot about or maybe teasing a bit about how many things are going into preview it’d be nice if they could start moving some things out of preview and letting us know the features are done they’re going to be supported long term it would be great but we’ll get there I think it’s again this is Growing Pains I believe everything is getting stable we’re getting a
10:52 getting stable we’re getting a lot of new feature feature improvements or what is it called what’s it called ease of life improvements what do they call those quality of life we’re getting a lot of like quality of life improvements of little things here and there that are that is good all right with that being said I had to say one more update Tommy how’s the how’s the baseball game going oh man off it officially ended last night the Yankees actually had a giant lead Aaron judge finally h a home run and broke out
11:24 judge finally h a home run and broke out of his slump but then in the last few Innings we gave it up we didn’t deserve to win win at least we won one game we won on what day did we we won on Tuesday which was nice so at least we saw something something man so wasn’t a sweep it was not a sweep it was not a sweep so is this why your horse a little bit today you screaming a little bit loud at I was screaming so much weird thing about stats though in the 120 years there’s been
11:56 though in the 120 years there’s been baseball yes if a team’s been up three nothing nothing that I think it’s happened about 50 times none of those games have gone to a game six so there’s a lot of these like very condensed stats where it is funny where there is no no hope for us there’s no hope just move on just move on yeah well Tommy it was funny because I heard language you were talking about like this is going to change my marriage this is like all this is a revolutionary this has never
12:26 is a revolutionary this has never happened before it’s still never happened so to to another year still never happened still in the trough of Despair Tommy’s got to continue charging on and Still Loving his team all right well that being said let’s get into our main topic today so I believe this is a mailbag Seth do you mind giving us a quick rundown or a read a quick read over this I I gotta be honest I was trying to I was trying to trim down the text to finish to fit it in inside the the description so I might have actually trimmed it down a bit too much so I
12:56 trimmed it down a bit too much so I apologize if I if I removed too many words from the actual description there that’s why I copy and paste things out of thank goodness sorry mailbag my name is Gabriel hey Gabriel thank you for sending us your name so that we can know it dress you and a great question I’m a consultant in data and analytics from UPN North in Canada up north even North North more you read it like a Canadian now is that how that I don’t know if I can do that a I
13:27 that I don’t know if I can do that a I really like your show a I’m just kid oh boy oh boy cancel and Gabriel yeah Gabriel is now not going to listen anymore I’m a I’m a listener almost from the start you are doing a great job to explain Concepts about people process and technology and keep us up toate with Microsoft analytics ecosystem my question for you is about people what is your take on how do you identify the difference between junior intermediate and Senior regardless of the role architect report developer data engineer
13:58 architect report developer data engineer what do you watch when it’s time to promote someone vertically like this on hard and soft skills I’m C I’m curious what do you think about this subject thanks to consider my question keep up the good work and best regards to all of you thank you for the question Gabriel it’s a good one he could have said best regards to all of you except Mike Mike’s not really saying much awesome this is good I like this question this is going to be a thinker of a question I think there’s this is really interesting to unpack
14:29 really interesting to unpack the team of developers the team of people that you have around the powerb ecosystem initial thoughts Tommy what are your what are your initial thoughts on what I really like about this is I feel like we’ve gone through a ton when it comes to like the skills Matrix we’ve gone through a t when it comes to talking about certain roles the data engineer how things overlap we’ve talked about leadership we’ve talked about Center of Excellence we’ve talked about initiative but I really like this question because it’s
15:00 really like this question because it’s not just the skill that makes someone be able to identify if someone is ready to level up and I think a lot of times we focus so much on the some more or less the skills Matrix almost like you said like some other verticals like I think it’s Logistics where they actually have levels like hey I’m a level 12 logistic Mis manager the same thing in autom manufacturing but what we do yeah there are
15:32 we do yeah there are some obviously fundamental Baseline skills that you need to be an expert on there’s a ton also that I don’t want to say it’s extracurricular or like not as necessary but obviously with powerbi and Microsoft fabric you could go through the gamut of I’m gonna be the best data flow person there is that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re ready but can help so I really liked also talking about the soft skills here too if I have a beginner if I have
16:03 too if I have a beginner if I have someone who who I’ve been looking over just came in it’s been a year and a half what are they showing and demonstrating and then I’m really interested to hear your guys’ thought on that intermediate role like a a lead data analyst business analyst and what their next level up is and why why yeah this will be interesting I think because it’s talking about regardless of roles so I think that the challenge for me here is you could you challenge for me here is you could tell me what’s an architect what know tell me what’s an architect what what is a report developer what’s a data
16:33 what is a report developer what’s a data modeler right so I think in my mind I have some of these roles as I look at what things are being developed or created inside fabric I’m sifting My Mind Over the kinds of people that we’re going to interact with as we build things in powerbi right so there’s there’s going to be a number of people building just reports not making a lot of models right there’s going to be a number of people building only semantic models or enjoying the semantic model portion of this and then we’re going to have now with fabric I think we’ve added other roles like the data engineer and now data scientists also into this so
17:05 now data scientists also into this so when I think about all of those different roles that we observe I’m I’m trying to think about like how do I quantify what I would say as a beginner versus intermediate and advanced and I when I do interviews I do a lot of interviews with people and one of the things I try to gauge them on whatever the interview is De engineering or powerbi or whatever I like to start the conversation with a here’s the topics we’re going to talk about today we’re going to talk about data bricks we’re going to talk about pipelines we’re going to talk about notebooks and
17:35 we’re going to talk about notebooks and fabric I give them an outline of like here’s the main things I’m interested in understanding your knowledge and then I give them a scale I say how good are you technically on this area and can you say one to five and I I promise I’m getting here somewhere at this point so the one to five scale is a one is I know about the feature I’ve maybe read about it but I have never really put my hands on keyboard Bo and actually worked with the feature right so that’s that’s what I would consider a beginner at a technical level
18:05 consider a beginner at a technical level on the five side I use the advanced analogy of you’re the one in your organization that is setting standards setting the pattern setting up others to win with whatever you’ve built right so you’re able to evaluate and consider multiple options and say for this situation for our organization we we think the best way to build let’s call it like a powerbi app right the best way to build an app now is to now use an org app and then inside the org apps add
18:35 app and then inside the org apps add your notebooks right so those are things that they’re considering and weighing the the value of is this something that we can maintain is it something that’s that’s technically feasible are others coming to you to ask for help right so those things so that’s how I’m evaluating like the skills on the technical side I think the soft skills are much harder to gauge and i’ actually curious your your your guys’s opinion on how do you evaluate the soft skills whether they’re beginner or Advanced yeah I think I’ll spend a lot
19:06 Advanced yeah I think I’ll spend a lot more time talking about soft skills so I I want to lean into Mo like talking about technical skill sets I think is the easier part of this Juniors to me you’re and some of the comments are also aligning to this right it’s more about showing aptitude of and a background of doing in the learning skills right because you’re going to have learn you’re going to have to learn a lot yeah and it I’m I’m trying to measure just how well they learn how you measure just how well they learn how like are you you’re in this realm
19:37 know like are you you’re in this realm where you don’t have a lot of experience right business you could come with a lot of schooling that’s great it’s not the same thing right because you’re not going to understand a lot of the things that you see out in the wild you might skill out of Junior into intermediate faster right if you’ve got that like SK theory and practice from schooling which is great yep but ultimately like you’re getting spoonfed right like projects here here are the specific requirements here’s the things we you’re looking for here’s talking as a school and at a junior level right I’m a junior level
20:08 junior level right I’m a junior level yeah makes sense like as a because I almost I almost feel this question comes from a manager perspective like how do you how do you bring people up or whatever the case may be so in skill sets you’re verifying work you’re you sets you’re verifying work you’re having code reviews people for sure know having code reviews people for sure reviewing things making sure they’re going out the right way etc etc right intermediate skill sets right I think you’re proficient you should be able to take the requirements everything they’re given in a project you you’re asking questions and you can execute on it but
20:39 questions and you can execute on it but you’re in that realm where like you’re you’re you’re getting you’re getting most of the information that’s allowing you to go develop once you like to move from my realm into like from intermediate or just a developer to a senior now you’re moving into being more of a problem solver right right you like from you’re using your skill sets to come up with Solutions instead of being told what the solutions are and and you’re offering feedback or potential like directions
21:10 feedback or potential like directions that you can go and owning the project right and what by that is like there’s a lot of nuance of stuff that in any report right any bi developer knows this if it’s internal you get maybe 60 at best 60% of the information right up front if you’re Act creating a story right like or following some pattern of like here’s the project that we’re working on you’ve got to go track down a lot of information sometimes that’s easy sometimes it’s a single owner sometimes it’s not and as you’re graduating
21:40 it’s not and as you’re graduating through those things I think that’s where you get into the soft skills but from a technical standpoint you’re also navigating some of the the project things and transferring your technical knowledge to like business speak yep I like like that Tom sorry go ahead Tommy I just say I really like what you went with there Seth and I really agree with this and I I made some notes here I’ll come back to him Tommy you I interrupted you Tommy I I really like that because it’s it’s all the stuff I wish I knew when I was starting out I
22:11 wish I knew when I was starting out I thought I could survive on being a nerd alone and a data Savvy alone but I always I always say that you wear like this job you’re really wearing multiple hats the project manager sometimes the communications and marketing director too because you got to do promotions there’s there’s a lot of things you need to juggle and a lot of that I look for or if I were to gauge myself starting off it was the
22:42 gauge myself starting off it was the not just obviously the things that are basic to any job in terms of like you basic to any job in terms of like how do you document things how do know how do you document things how do you keep on top of it but I’m looking for the for the relationships more importantly especially with that beginner if I’m G to say okay this person is you really showing that they’re ready to level up it’s the relationships that they’ve built and developed with the people who are there are their stakeholders probably the usual people that are asking for reports do can they have a good
23:13 reports do can they have a good conversation do those stakeholders in a sense rely on them or when it comes to I need a new report I need an update I’m going to go to that person and those are the type of things I want to see and I I want to see also that ability really that communication and it doesn’t have to be you’re the best Discovery talker there is and you can ask the best questions but you have that empathy and you really have that ability to regardless if it’s bro something’s broken how do I use this where is that
23:45 broken how do I use this where is that data they can in a sense speak that data need that that hybrid hybrid language between the data and the business I’m I may venture this may not apply and again you guys correct me if I’m wandering off I’m I’m internalizing what you’re saying here and I’m I’m also trying to unpack it a little bit as far as how is I how do I see this happening with again I’m not going to talk specifically around the architect or report developer or data engineer just going to talk holistically here sure stepping back to this and
24:15 here sure stepping back to this and saying look if I think about the junior level if I bring on some of people I’m reading a book now recommended by Matthew roach scaling people is a book that I’m reading and it’s quite long it’s it’s definitely I’m going to have a trip here pretty soon that I’m G coming up to so I’m gonna put in my ears I’m going to continue listening to it so I’m unpacking this book and so as I think about scaling people this was a Google executive who has through many many years grown and developed teams in a small company as Google was
24:45 teams in a small company as Google was the very beginning stages and continued growing these larger and larger teams taking on responsibility finding people that are going to win enabling them and giving them the skills to win so that’s the lens of where I’m coming from here from here if I think about that senior person I’m going to throw out a couple skills that I think are there and those are more of the softer skills if I think about the senior it that senior person requires the least amount of Direction and so like Seth if you’re like an organization like your director you’re at the high level where
25:16 director you’re at the high level where you are that senior person you’re going to rely on you’re going to say hey we’re having problems loading this data or we need a solution to handle this with minimal Direction they understand what the need is can go get their own requirements they are able to not come back to you SE like do you want it like this do you want like that you have a lot there’s not a lot of questions and what happens is and and this is maybe what I think I like to see in a senior is they come back to me and say look I’ve thought about your problem I have two or three ways to solve this one I’m
25:48 two or three ways to solve this one I’m going to recommend this way because it’s most optimized on this this and this aspect and I’ve tried this and these other two and it didn’t seem to work as well for our company so all three solutions may be a solution to work but I’m picking the one and giving like reasonable like almost like a I’m thinking like a lawyer when you like you thinking like a lawyer when you like verify your case or something like know verify your case or something like that I’m coming in I’m justifying the answer that I’m going to have with facts backing it up with here’s why we’re going to build it this way and then the outcome of that senior
26:20 way and then the outcome of that senior is whatever they’ve built they it works like it’s going to work they figure out the challenges and you come back 6 months from now a year from now the thing that they put in place just humming along not a problem so I think those those senior people are going to build some of those solutions that are just rock solid to some degree like you can give them a task they know how to do it they they they thought about the edge cases of where things may fall off when things may break and then you walk they walk away from the project
26:50 you walk they walk away from the project if it’s a consultant they leave if it’s if they’re on a different project the old project they have doesn’t come become this massive Tech debt of thing yeah so I’ll just pause right there I have other points too but that’s just one of my initials thoughts reactions yeah no it’s it’s right on right right on with my thoughts as well right like where where I think where I think I have some additional points that maybe you do too within here is how do you get people there because okay that’s that’s my next Point yes the largest the the way I
27:21 largest the the way I simplify the the great way you explain that is on on any level right are but especially from just an intermediate or developer level to senior level positions are are you making your boss’s life easier yes or harder yes and and harder is hey I have a question I don’t know how to right and if you’re going up to the boss as opposed to trying like even if you can’t find the answer right you’re putting a burden on your boss to
27:53 you’re putting a burden on your boss to go find that information for you to gather the requirements to do something for you to complete something right so there’s a burden there hey I know you asked me to do this but which way should I go well now the burden is on the boss to figure it out right and in many cases like you’re like this is a known thing it’s not a bad thing but Mike to your point when you get to a like if I’m going to promote somebody to a senior level the conversations change or the
28:23 level the conversations change or the expectations I have for that conversation to change should which is exactly what you outline hey yes directionally we’ve got a a really big thing this is a project right yes I can give them a summary give them some guide posts of like here’s the direction we need to head here’s the things we need to do let’s have like a couple meetings but they’re they’re in some cases just building out the stories as they need they’re like coming up with a few options and directions and every
28:53 few options and directions and every time as we’re doing checkpoints it’s exactly what you talked about it’s we can go this direction or this direction yes this direction or this direction right so it’s or two and the huge difference or four when you do your ey your eye exam yeah yeah it always looks fuzzy doesn’t matter what you they do it’s always fuzzy but for some reason the huge difference between that from a leadership perspective right on on any level of somebody running a project running whatever is if you don’t come
29:23 running whatever is if you don’t come with that now it’s the the onus is on you being able to communicate everything you’ve gone through or me diving into the details so that I can make an informed decision because you’re not summarizing that for me yes right so that just want to 100% agree and I think there are other softer skills underneath there obviously being able to communicate right really well that’s another point I had that you’re tou Point intermediate level like can you read your own code in in business speak
29:55 read your own code in in business speak yes right have you notated it that way are you are you doing a lot of things right like but base level intermediate like people should be covering all the base level expectations of a team right that means whatever you’ve set up from documentation or notes in code or code reviews or where stuff is supposed to be saved and belongs etc etc like that is so part of your it’s not even a question whether or not you’re doing it it’s just there and done right so you’re building those those levels of
30:27 so you’re building those those levels of like like operating as a great team member and learning new skills to grow to the next point but I think in large part the big shift between that like just developer or engineer to a senior level is you’re you’re leveling up on the the value you’re bringing to the team and the organization I like your point here a lot and I’m I’m going to add I’m going to add one more thing here my kids have been going through some I guess it’s called like strength finder I think is
30:58 called like strength finder I think is what the the book is called so strength finders figuring out what kind finders figuring out what personality you are like do you need of personality you are like do you need a lot of friends are you an influencer or you going to be more of like I have less friends but I have really deep meaning relationship with a couple friends and I think this is some of these soft skills I’m not sure if this I think people can dial certain skills of themselves up or down depending on their needs yep and so when I’m in a work setting I’m probably a bit more aggressive with my words a bit more like stronger with my language around solu Solutions and things that I’m developing
31:29 Solutions and things that I’m developing because I’m trying to convey strength and like I understand this I know what’s going on but I think to some degree those and and if I talk about like Junior and intermediate levels you need a person that’s going to have some level of what I’m going to call woo the ability to convince people that your solution is the right one the ability and I think say this goes very along very well along with your good communicator right I’m expecting those senior people to be able to take complex ideas complex Solutions and distill them down into simple
32:00 distill them down into simple architecture diagrams simple communicated projects right be able to and and like woo not woo people like that’s not a bad thing it’s like they have the ability to like engage and have empathy for the person needing the work done they understand what’s going on they can articulate and it’s a lot of this I think a part of this it’s around being good communicators like hey I heard you say and then restating the problem in a different way that understand it does that make sense am I am I understanding
32:31 that make sense am I am I understanding your problem correctly and then I would say the intermediate and soft skill and the junior people are they’re just some version less of that right maybe they’re not doing that they need those skills they don’t do it all the time they’re only doing it some of the time so I think there’s some level of like wo that needs to be held at that senior level I don’t like let’s let’s land on communication for a second here like I don’t I don’t disagree with you but I do I I think I would would separate it out in that that that is more
33:04 in that that that is more job dependent right and the reason I say that is okay what do you mean directionally there are a lot of even in technical Realms like I I still think about directions that people would want to head do you want to be a manager leader do you want to engage more with the business or you are you more the technical leader and and communication is still extreme important but the skill sets that that you need to like the technical side is going to be the easier
33:34 technical side is going to be the easier side can you summarize a lot of complex things can you like simplify it we’re talking about diagrams and then can you get down into the the weeds right like absolutely communication is important in there especially as you’re articulating ideas I think the I think what you describe is almost like where I would say you’re leveling up you really if you don’t have those skills innately like there’s a lot of soft skill work you need to do to ensure that you’re communicating across the
34:05 you’re communicating across the boundaries of very technical things to business audiences that do not have technical understanding or understanding where they’re at right and and presentations right like Hey we’re presenting whole big projects or scope for like the quarter the year or whatever like leveling up those skills I think is much more important as you start to have to be part of you as you start to have to be part of the the cycle of more of the know the the cycle of more of the business side of things and to to me the
34:37 business side of things and to to me the levels of communication would would differ from those those senior levels because there there are certainly opportunities I would say a technical leader like an architect could have that they’re presenting to a big wide audience but that opportunity is not going to be around very often as opposed to someone who’s go like leveling up into senior and management level where that’s a regular part of the the the daily life is communicating workloads and projects and timelines and all those things oh man you’re
35:08 all those things oh man you’re touching on so many good points Tommy I don’t want to stop I have another Point around what Seth just said but you continue that because I have a question okay i’ been WR I’ve been writing down tons of things here so I’m sorry I’m just trying to like really unpack a lot of these things I liked your comment Seth around the project timeline I think there’s also the skill at the senior level that is you can listen to a problem and enough of the fabric technical side where you can project a project a solution so someone says hey we
35:38 solution so someone says hey we need real time right okay well well what does that mean give me some more requirements like what does that look like and then that senior person is then asking a lot of questions listening to the feedback and then saying okay based on what you said here are some solutions that we’re do that are possible and then just being clear about it right I think we could do we could use the real-time analytics of Microsoft fabric we could stream events in over here we could we could do this they they know enough to be able to say with confidence here’s part of here’s a solution that I can project but they’re
36:09 solution that I can project but they’re also able to clearly articulate like look we’ve never done this before I would need some extra time you give yourself a little bit of padding to like appropriately estimate out the project and another I think characteristic of a senior person would be they can deliver a project on time with their estimates so you come to them and you estimate how long will it take you to ingest these thousand tables that user is able to say well in past experience or other things that senior person is going
36:39 other things that senior person is going to take other data points and be able to come up with a rough estimate but when they do the project they’re either getting it done on time or under time or when there is issues and I I think in every data project I’ve ever been in there’s never been an easy project because there’s always that that layer of unknown unknowns right so there’s always things are going to come up that are just going to be problems and so I think having someone who can see or have the for forethought and the knowledge
37:09 the for forethought and the knowledge ahead to say look they’re giving good
37:11 ahead to say look they’re giving good time estimates they’re able to get projects done in a reasonable amount of time and when issues come up because they will come up they’re clearly communicating this has been a problem this is causing a delay and that way there’s no surprises on the other side I think that’s I think that’s a characteristic I would look for in a senior because a lot of people can be okay with extensions in timelines if they know there’s real issues that we didn’t know about like we came in we assumed this the data came
37:42 assumed this the data came in totally wrong we were told it was good right we need to fix it so what do we do like let’s take a decision point at this point in the road this is going to impact our timelines here’s some again back to our options earlier which was here’s some solutions we should think about let’s think about this or this this is what I recommend okay leadership now it’s your time to say are we going to eat the tech debt now or are we going to just push it off and just get it done and work on it later so I think that to me is a I don’t see Juniors doing that stuff and I see sometimes intermediates doing those
38:12 see sometimes intermediates doing those level of projections but I find that intermediate and juniors are very uncomfortable with giving timelines and project deadlines and be able to commit to getting something accomplished because it just feels like that that’s just not that’s a senior’s role kind thing a bit more yeah you definitely need like the the elevation from I’m just estimating a work task or a story or a thing to I’m estimating or all the things or giving T bringing it a higher level
38:42 bringing it a higher level what’s the T-shirt size right like how like are we going to be 100% on no but there’s a calculation by which you do that right so it’s like hey it’s I think it’s going to take x amount of time we add some buffer we do these things yes here’s the Gant chart right here’s the the Pro timeline from what we know right now clearly defining those things and I think you really nail another part Mike that I I look I would look for that is solid already in a m like a developer or in immediate stage is how transparent are are those individuals with problems
39:14 are are those individuals with problems yeah right to your point it it I think you go you graduate the more you’re in business to understanding that like and you graduate only when you’ve either failed horribly meaning like there was a timeline and you missed it right a big impact of like you were part of or around and close enough to recognize that are are there impacts to businesses with missing timelines 100% oh yes right
39:44 with missing timelines 100% oh yes right sometimes they’re bigger than others so does it mean that there aren’t ramifications to the my no there are a lot of the times significant but what does the business do it automat ially pivots right like okay we are positioned with a like a situation we did not expect how do we resolve that how do we reset what are the timelines Etc and the reason that is such a big deal for organizations right or at any level is is that you you didn’t give
40:18 level is is that you you didn’t give them time to react and and plan to absorb the change right yes and and what you highlighted there is like hey something went arry in in this project here here’s the specifics of here’s what we’re observing here’s the specifics of the problem here’s where I think we can go but this is the impact then that automatically gets communicated then then you can smooth things out or it’s not as as a big deal for your team or for your organization because somebody
40:48 for your organization because somebody brought it up right away and I think that’s a culture thing one but two it’s also like a culture meaning like people have to feel confident that they can bring that stuff forward instead of just being like yeah we’re going to power through and maybe maybe we hit the date or maybe we don’t but it it also shows that they’re invested in the success of the project and they’re like whoa right like we have to talk about something because yes we’re misaligned right now and and that is a a huge
41:18 right now and and that is a a huge differentiator I think between someone who’s been in the business or in their position for a while that elevates them to that senior position because once again we’re giving you a title or you should be promoting to a title that is adding more value to the team and to the the business and that’s part of that value I think and so many things you’re hitting on okay sorry Tommy we’ve been we’ve been talking back and forth SE a lot here is there anything you want to jump in because I do have another I want you to go and make sure you I I really want to ask this because I’m loving I’m I’m loving the conversation
41:50 loving I’m I’m loving the conversation but what about the actual gauge right there’s really no way to measure this per the like those skills those some of those soft skills like hey how are they doing with like they’re unless you’re doing like surveys in forms or you’re sitting down with them with HS with the business right so and then you don’t want just one or two like offchain so what’s that way to accurately and we’ll
42:20 to accurately and we’ll sayate yeah in a sense quantify gauge yeah yep you’re on you’re on the the perfect right I just do it based on how I feel so that’s that’s completely arbitrary completely arbitary I just pick I just pick numbers out of the thin air and just apply them this this is the one this is the one point that I I I really like a highlight is is wanting to make that actually points back up at Great Gabriel or the manager right you’re not going to know this unless you’re looking for opportunities for people who are performing very well in
42:50 people who are performing very well in that intermediate stage and they have the the skill sets or want or the drive or the want to get to a senior level you have to look for opportunities for them to handle those situations right so there’s two two two things one is you should clear like and I’m almost getting into my closing statement but it’s like the you should absolutely have your own clear expectations for a role and a lot of the things we’ve talked about while some of them are soft skills or or performance type things you can
43:22 or or performance type things you can you can summarize that in a in a statement right clear clear clear and transparent communication right about projects and timeline whatever the case may be right that could be one of the expectations we have of a senior person but where where the where leveling up gets very interesting sometimes sometimes it’s easy sometimes it’s not where in order for you to understand whether or not somebody could take a Next Step you you you you almost you have to ride a little
43:52 you you almost you have to ride a little bit of risk with some some projects right because there could be a one and they’re not you’re not going to know if they can perform unless you give them the opportunity and hopefully sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t I’m gonna I’m gon to take a couple more items a friend of mine I’ve been talking about an unpacking leadership and I think this is an interesting phrase that I’m using a lot in my journey as a business owner and working through companies and and Building Things here I’m going to throw this phrase out here and see what you
44:22 this phrase out here and see what you guys think the phrase is and I don’t know where this came from he just told me it I don’t know someone may have quoted this one again I’m I’m not taking credit for this I’m just taking I’m been and listening to it and and listening and trying to think on the concept here walk as far as you can see and when you get there you can see further is the phrase all right so this is like a a riddle maybe at some point right the skills that took me so I can only see so far I can only see up to the Horizon right so I can look at that
44:54 Horizon right so I can look at that Horizon and walk all the way to the Horizon but when you you get there there’s a whole new set of challenges in front of you that is just different than where you came from and so I think the principle here is the skills that brought you from where you were to where you are right now that has been a journey there there’s been skills that brought you to that position however you the next part of your journey the seeing further further portion that that is another area of new
45:24 portion that that is another area of new skills and the skills you had are not necessar the skills you need to go to the next mile the next Horizon and as and as a business owner I’m finding a lot of this especially as I’m scaling my team me internally have to grow a lot initially I was doing all the work I was the developer I was the builder I was the communicator I was a sales guy everything I did well the skills I had were around me doing everything I’ve had to now grow and learn and read and try to what leader do I want to become as I bring on a team of
45:54 want to become as I bring on a team of people around me to accomplish things for my customers or accomplish the things for my company internally what do I want what do I want the culture of my team to look like and so one of the things that we’re talking about here is moving identifying what people are in junior intermediate and Senior levels but Seth I think you you hit a great Point here we can’t just assume people are just going to naturally move their way up through these pieces these different levels I think we need to be intentional about our organization and figure out where is
46:24 our organization and figure out where is what should we be doing how should should we be investing in our team to
46:29 should we be investing in our team to to assume that your team will just naturally get better on these things that’s not a good assumption everything runs to entropy it all goes to chaos right so because of that we have to be intentional and invest in people and especially if you’re talking about leaders of other people on your team they need the skills to be you got to train them spend the time investing them that hey look you’re going to become a leader you’re doing better things here are to your point Seth here are some really hard projects
46:59 Seth here are some really hard projects and you have to lay out the expectation up front look this is new for you I need you to start taking more ownership on these things here’s what I’d like to see I’d like you to see you give an estimate we’re going to kind you give an estimate we’re going to this this is one of many of this this is one of many projects you may be working on but as you do this one of the things we’re going to be looking for trying to develop skills around is be clear about it I think one of the things I couldn’t stand when I had a manager who wouldn’t give me what is the bar I’m trying to jump over or the bar kept moving right yeah oh my gosh I was so conf confused and I was like well I think I’m trying as hard as I can to get
47:29 think I’m trying as hard as I can to get to that bar but then I get I feel like hey I made it to the bar I’m at the finish line and the finish line moves 30t further and like oh dang it I got to keep I got to keep running yeah so people who move that that that that decision or the goal or the end thing yeah there’s going to have to be some Grace in here no’s no one’s going to ever dial it in and get it 100% perfect all the time I I get that but just having some of the the expectation management and I think even having this conversation of like what is Junior what is intermediate what is senior and just out outlining some of the characteristics the properties that
47:59 the characteristics the properties that your company or you as a manager values I think already starts aligning the team and expectations I was talking with a a recent Microsoft pm and they said I think it was every other week twice a month they sit down and they have a data culture conversation so part of their standup their team conversation is they regularly revisit the data culture of or the culture the the their team culture team culture yeah what does that mean how does what behaviors do we want to
48:29 how does what behaviors do we want to incentivize rewarding people who are doing those behaviors communicating I think that’s so healthy for a team because everyone now knows the expectations of what’s going on right I I couldn’t agree with more with a lot of what you said having having that bar clear expectations right if if I don’t have an expectation of what a senior is how am I going to be able to articulate that to somebody right right and and the other thing is like at at at points in time as you’re develop people in teams right the be the Sometimes the
49:00 in teams right the be the Sometimes the best you can do is just make sure that people are growing because that’s going to help them more in their career could there be like roadblocks as far as like actual promotion or budget or whatever it yes but at the same time in your mind or how that individual is helping with the value that they’re bringing if they’re elevating into senior levels then when those opportunities arise you seize them without any question right yes one I I really like your I like that phrase right because it what it
49:30 that phrase right because it what it what it is saying is all of us on some level should be moving forward and managers should be helping their their people move forward in the paths that are going to be more beneficial to them as a manager right one of like the best teams and I look at like the groups of people that I’ve worked with individually in the past but the best teams are the teams that are carrying the burden for the managers in leaders and solving those problems so that the
50:01 and solving those problems so that the the attention of the the manager or the leader is one of future forward mostly right where you’re strategizing you’re setting up the next big steps for the the team to make even bigger value outcomes for the business right yes it’s it’s I would argue probably like it’s the worst scenario where leaders or managers are the ones doing the grunt work all the time yes because one of two things happen hasn’t happened you’re not cultivating your people right you’re not upskilling them or you you don’t have
50:34 upskilling them or you you don’t have the person that is taking on that senior more more senior role yes and then you got to find them right and and what’s great is some people come in with the skill sets and the drive and like just will rip through all of of these levels and I think that should be recognized as well and other ones are not going to are not going to go that that that fast it takes work and you can level them up but in many cases I think it’s these other ancillary outside of just the
51:05 other ancillary outside of just the skill like the technical skills that are the like what we’re talking about most it’s it’s the technical skill is an assumption right if you’re a senior we expect that your technical skills are are spot on right you’ve seen a lot of things you are coming up with Solutions it’s the byproduct of a lot of those outcomes and that work though that start to generate different opportunities and paths for people and want to like if you want to slap a senior like thing on that
51:36 want to slap a senior like thing on that that’s how you elevate yourself in a team or an organization is where you capture a lot of the thoughts that we’ve talked about related to the value that you’re bringing with a team with minimal or lower level lower inputs from top down right you’re driving you’re almost driving the initiatives a lot of the time and I what a world where all all a leader has to say is like here’s our top level objectives like come up with the plan and let me know next week right right sweet go do it go go get it done
52:09 right sweet go do it go go get it done right making things happen yeah I love it awesome super good topics here I think we’re just about at time here so we’ll get a thing oh get a wrap going here so I I think I am really excited to to see where we go with this very fabric is awesome this discussion has been incredibly valuable to me I think this is just this stuff we need to unpack this is the stuff that doesn’t come out of the technology this is all the soft skills the people skills and I I think my final thoughts my final thoughts here is
52:39 final thoughts my final thoughts here is walk as far as you can see and when you get there you’ll see further that’s going to be my final thought and Tomy any final thoughts for you no I think this is something that hopefully wherever you’re at U beginner intermediate or trying to get to the next step hopefully you have a good boss a good culture but have the have the conversation with your boss and be proactive too because a lot of times your boss will be more than happy to tell you where you are falling short to say so if you do want to level up talk
53:11 say so if you do want to level up talk to you those people who are responsible for that who work with you go what do I need to do what do I need to work on so yeah awesome two two real quick last points just to Gabriel right if it where the question comes in the the feedback would be have clear delineations of like what those roles are because it also gives the bar for the individual to to like leap towards like might was talking about and then one thing that I didn’t talk that if there’s question of how you do that what I’ve also found very successful in just measuring like where
53:43 successful in just measuring like where a person is at is using a nine it’s called a nine box go look at that it it looks at like potential and performance and and read up on that because it’s it’s very I think telling of of how do you gauge where people are at in teams and where you want to take them from a skills perspective I like it with that being said we appreciate you all on the podcast we know this is an hour of your time that you’re never going to get back hopefully this was a more valuable time than you scrolling through you YouTube and other videos like watching
54:13 and other videos like watching those cat videos that you love or whatever else you’re doing or hopefully we are here and helping you complete your exercise so good job you’re keeping up the good work finish strong and you can be a better leader tomorrow because you see where you’ve been all the Phil philosophical thoughts but with that being said the only thing we do on the podcast we don’t advertise this if you like what you hear here and you want to have other people continue learning about this stuff as well we’d love to have more people to our community please share this with somebody else if you do don’t mind hit the Bell or subscribe down below and
54:44 hit the Bell or subscribe down below and the YouTube channel or all the other social media platforms it lets the algorithm know you like this this is good stuff so that being said Tommy where else can you find this podcast you can find us on Apple Spotify wherever get your podcast make sure this subscribe and leave a rating it helps us out a ton you have a question idea or a topic that you want us to talk about a future episode head over power. tips podcast leave your name and a great question and finally join us live every Tuesday and Thursday a. m. Central and join the conversation on all of
55:14 and join the conversation on all of powerb at tips social media channels awesome thank you all so much we appreciate you and we’ll see you next time time [Music]
55:45 [Music] out
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