Knowledge, Understanding & Wisdom – Ep. 246

Most of us can memorize features. The harder skill is knowing what to do next when the problem is vague, the model is slow, or the business can’t agree on a definition. In Episode 246, Mike, Tommy, and Seth use the knowledge/understanding/wisdom ladder as a way to talk about hiring and growth: what it looks like when someone truly understands Power BI, and how to design interviews (and career reps) that build that level of capability.

News & Announcements

• Submit a topic idea — Share questions, debate topics, or real-world scenarios you want the crew to tackle.

• Subscribe to the Explicit Measures podcast — Get new episodes as they drop (and catch up on the backlog).

• Tips+ Theme Generator — Generate consistent Power BI themes quickly, so your team spends less time formatting and more time answering questions.

• Mike Carlo on LinkedIn — Follow Mike for Power BI/Fabric tips, demos, and episode updates.

• Seth Bauer on LinkedIn — Follow Seth for engineering perspective on analytics delivery and scaling practices.

• Tommy Puglia on LinkedIn — Follow Tommy for leadership, process, and Power BI lessons from the field.

Main Discussion

The episode frames a simple ladder that shows up everywhere in analytics work:

• Knowledge: you’ve learned the thing (a feature, a DAX pattern, an admin setting).
• Understanding: you know when to use it, why it works, and what it breaks.
• Wisdom: you can make good calls when the situation is new, messy, and full of tradeoffs.

What makes the conversation valuable is how quickly it turns into hiring reality. Organizations say they need “a Power BI person,” but that can mean very different roles: report builder, modeler, admin, release manager, or someone thinking about embedded experiences. When the role is fuzzy, interviews drift toward trivia—yet the job requires judgment.

Key takeaways:

• Define the role in outcomes first (build reports vs. own models vs. run the tenant) before you write the job description.
• Use scenario prompts (slow model, unclear metric definition, governance constraints) to surface reasoning and troubleshooting approach.
• Listen for tradeoffs: strong candidates explain why they chose an approach, what they’d measure, and what risks they’re avoiding.
• Beware “10 years of experience” that’s really “1 year repeated 10 times” in a single lane—breadth is usually earned deliberately.
• Leveling up often looks like expanding adjacent reps: reporting → modeling → admin/governance → release processes → embedded.
• For senior hires, prioritize autonomy and learning speed: the platform changes constantly, and new problems rarely match old examples.
• Communication is part of the skill: teams need people who can translate business intent into definitions, models, and repeatable decisions.

Looking Forward

Define the role, then interview for reasoning: if someone can explain tradeoffs and adapt their playbook to problems they haven’t seen before, you’re looking at understanding—not just memorization.

Episode Transcript

0:10 thank you [Music] welcome back everyone to the explicit measures podcast with Tommy Seth and Mike good to be here Mike thanks oh hi Tommy hi Seth how you doing great see energy morning time this is our last this is the last of our pre-recorded

0:40 this is the last of our pre-recorded podcast after this it gets real we’ll be back next week yeah we will be back next week week and it feels a bit like a radio though that tone if we were to keep that up I feel like we need one of those sound machines [Music] [Music] yeah where are you at Johnny on the spot Mike sure Mike sure great to be here yeah I’m sorry one day I’ll have to update my stuff the only soundbot I have is

1:13 stuff the only soundbot I have is oh my gosh I can only I can only I can only bleep out bad words that people say that’s the only soundbot I’ve got I got sorry oh man welcome back to the explicit podcast so that’s basically I’m gonna need one on my end too that’s all I got anyways anyways jumping into things here our topic for today I think will be an interesting one I believe this topic came from me I

1:43 one I believe this topic came from me I think this is what I was picking on here I was thinking about things I think maybe this topic came from when I was interviewing people or thinking about interviewing people around power bi related things I think I think this concept works for everything Beyond power bi but I feel like I have have observed people with these different terminologies now there’s a lot of nuance to this this language here so bear with me while I try to explain things here so I believe the the topic for today is the difference

2:14 topic for today is the difference between knowledge wisdom and understanding and I think they all hold a little bit different connotations I would maybe lump wisdom and understanding maybe together they’re very much related I think there’s a very nuanced concept around understanding things versus wisdom wisdom but but I think I’ve come across this I feel like I’ve interviewed people who know a lot of things about power bi I feel like I’ve been able to talk to people who are wise and how they would Implement things inside power bi

2:45 Implement things inside power bi but I feel like the fewer and far between is people who understand how the power bi works and or how the model Works behind the scenes so just for the sake of clarity and the English language we should be probably refer to the dictionary and the definitions of these words because they are they are different yes but it’s it’s I think I think I think knowledge and understanding is would be the largest gap wisdom and understanding there might be a slighter less of a

3:15 there might be a slighter less of a definition you’ve got it wrong yeah I don’t know oh man so now this is why we talk about this knowledge is what you’ve learned right right you’re learning your learnings of things understanding is how you apply the knowledge in certain situations or against something and this would be something like hey you learn a new Dax measure you understand that this is a good use case for where you would apply it it wisdom oh wait wait wait I want to keep

3:45 wisdom oh wait wait wait I want to keep going with that I don’t I think your definition of understanding is a little bit not fully fleshed out there yeah hang on let me finish okay go ahead and look this stuff up all right so wisdom is using knowledge and understanding to apply discernment it’s where you’ve got it it’s the experience part of all of all of your built knowledge understanding and application over time that allows you to take those two things and and really

4:16 two things and and really like add the new add the the secret sauce to it essentially so if you want to like take five minutes here okay look these things up on your own I did and then especially agree with me I have them and they’re in the notebook so you don’t need to get Snappy it’s there and I think your definition of wisdom is actually wrong if you want to see it says Snappy please go back like two episodes yeah exactly so and also for us too and I want to put this little spin in here too for us in our own background our own faith

4:47 in our own background our own faith backgrounds wisdom is a very powerful word I’m not disagreeing with you right yes that makes a big point so wisdom is the ability to understand well knowledge is just basically are able to learn because of our intellect alone I think there’s a discernment portion of wisdom I think there I definitely I think we all agree knowledge is just things right I can go read a book yeah and I get the things around knowledge that and there’s

5:18 things around knowledge that and there’s a lot of people who are very smart who know a lot of things but they’re just like spat and they’re just fact spitters right yeah we don’t really ever able to get anything done where I where I I think it’s a stacking capability I think wisdom is a very good thing and it’s also taking all of your knowledge and I want to Define it like to me wisdom is taking the knowledge you have and using it in a you know educated sensible way right so it’s taking all of your decisions and making

5:48 taking all of your decisions and making sound judgments be able to evaluate the knowledge and make like the best decision based on the information that you have so I think wisdom and understanding are very clear where I think understanding is a little bit different and where I would say it’s harder for people to understand power bi is it’s taking your insights and awareness and all of the the wisdom you have right okay I’m looking at these four different options options and now you’re able to say you’re able

6:20 and now you’re able to say you’re able to see connections and implications there’s other there’s other depth to the understanding portion so maybe you could lump wisdom and understanding in the same together but I would I would I don’t think that’s necessarily wisdom so okay so words matter and if we rebound 15 seconds you would have just heard yourself say I would apply my my knowledge and understanding right like how I would describe wisdom is using my understanding of all these things and yes that’s it that’s exactly why I’m

6:50 yes that’s it that’s exactly why I’m making the argument it’s knowledge understanding wisdom because it’s the it’s the secret sauce on top of those things because like I said I think understanding is that that step up right it is it is also I think the challenge where I’d love to talk about the interview aspect of this because I think that’s where more of the interesting part of the company yeah true yes as opposed to semantics but I think semantics are important and and another I’m just going to say

7:20 another trigger point for me is where people start saying like when we’re talking about definitions of things I don’t care how you feel or what they they mean to you it’s like there’s a definition and it means this right because it’s words so that’s why I’m saying like hey can we agree on yeah knowledge is book smarts how you on how you it’s like comprehend it’s understanding Applied Mathematics I learn about the math function and these things yes I learned that this is Dax

7:51 things yes I learned that this is Dax and this is how I would do that understanding where to use them in a specific use case is applying knowledge right so I understand how to do that that doesn’t mean that I like can collectively or have the experience to understand like how the model works the like when you’re applying wisdom to this I don’t even know if it really applies to some degree maybe it’s like where it steps way out where you’re looking at the ecosystem you have you you are

8:22 the ecosystem you have you you are architecting maybe it is where you’re architecting like how all this knits together yeah and you’re taking like an ambiguous idea of like a business unit that says hey I want to do all these things and you’re like wow okay well let me see how all these pieces fit together I’m going to take all of my applied knowledge of the things I’ve learned the understanding of how I’ve applied them and I’m going to create this net new thing that I haven’t done before and I’m able to do that because I have the wisdom to be able to figure out like all these different

8:52 figure out like all these different pieces that’s whether or not we agree like that’s kind

8:56 whether or not we agree like that’s kind whether or not we agree like that’s how I think about this no and that’s of how I think about this no and that’s totally okay and I’m I’m telling you like as looking at the definitions and how I perceive the like I think the definition of understanding contains definitions of both wisdom and knowledge to get to the point where understanding occurs so if I would if I again if we’re talking like if we’re talking in an interview right if I’m personally trying to look for people again we’re very much nuancing on the words here right if I had to pick from three different people literally from the Webster dictionary

9:27 literally from the Webster dictionary that I’m reading and I’m like well I I see what you’re saying I I figure there’s like there’s like a part of this what I think understanding is when you’re again I’m looking at the dictionary definition right there’s this there’s some other similar words like compassion empathy you can there’s like there’s a there’s a human part of this one there’s other similar words like intellect intelligence mind brain power right I’m literally reading from the Oxford right now so like these are the things that we’re talking about it and so I’m seeing that as going when I’m seeing

9:57 I’m seeing that as going when I’m seeing the definition of understanding I think the definition of that is now combining wisdom is around decisions and judgments pieces and maybe that’s more of the human word of understanding right maybe it’s more of a human capability there but I think the understanding is like not that I have empathy for power bi but the idea is like I can I can foresee what things will happen before I even build them like and then I would communicate that’s wisdom I would say that’s not an understanding The Pinnacle yeah understanding is my ability to

10:29 yeah understanding is my ability to comprehend the different knowledge that I have how it works together wisdom is the ability to make the right decision and to be able to understand how the context works if you were to put it outside of the definition does I’m gonna go find your Oxford because the the the the the real the real one dictionary. com don’t don’t is like the literal definition of of wisdom the ability or result of an ability the ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge experience

11:01 knowledge experience understanding common sense and insight I’m saying my argument is like understanding as you’re saying opponent of wisdom okay not the other way around because I think it is a building block because like alert a learned thing I like even put this into practice right sure you learn something new there is a okay great I now think I know I know how to write this syntax that’s knowledge I’ve I’ve learned how to react to the next next I have a situation where I need to apply

11:32 I have a situation where I need to apply that bit of knowledge okay understand I can apply it here right to me it’s it it’s very much in the technical realm knowledge apply knowledge apply I understand the situations of where I could apply this thing I learned how to go streamline this this query I can go find situations and I understand where I’ve applied this I’m gonna go like make that thing thing then then it’s like then where you throw in experiences where I could you could in my mind you could say hey there’s

12:03 in my mind you could say hey there’s some there’s some wisdom that you could apply around like this guy being able or girl being able to do something that sure seeds just knowledge and application and I think what’s important about that is is that is exactly where I think there’s stumbling blocks in interviews yeah trying to find people okay who have the level of discernment of where you could drop them in correct your situations and then go all right give me give me a couple days to like familiarize myself with the area I now

12:33 familiarize myself with the area I now know where I am just purely based on you dropping me in here I can I can apply all of these things because I have that level of discernment I’m using all the things I’ve learned and I understand right how you built them sure I’m gonna go recreate this thing or I’m gonna like under like do what you need me to do that is the missing piece and man many many and okay so someone who has it okay that’s experience agree so what has it they may not have

13:04 agree so what has it they may not have all the knowledge either but you you can trust them that they will get the knowledge because they have the wisdom to know how to get it like so I want to throw you into something yeah I’m going to skip on the terms now so we’re going to disagree on how these words fit together I I just I still disagree with your analogy of that one I think in an I think in an interview if I’m using words with an interview so I’m going to transition over to interview things right if I’m looking in an interview I would I would never use the word wisdom in an interview it just wouldn’t make sense right but I do think that’s just a word that just came to mind and I felt like it’s it’s a good word in this scenario

13:35 it’s it’s a good word in this scenario but really what I’m thinking about here is or what I would like to Pivot the conversation more towards is the difference between knowledge and understanding right those are the two things I want to more focus on and I think we agree on the difference between those pieces and would have a better time debating like or even talking through like when you’re doing an interview and when someone shows up with knowledge you can tell tell and something that Seth and I have done on some interviews and I think it’s actually very telling is when you get someone into an interview ask

14:05 someone into an interview ask some your questions but you propose situations or challenges hey in this situation situation this is happening you have a model it’s been given to you it’s running slow what do you do and then listen to the answers because Seth and myself have the understanding of like okay if this model is slow or you have a report that’s not doing well we have in Mountain Minds a way on how we would tackle that and we’re looking for your answer to like align against that have you have you had the experience of doing this

14:36 experience of doing this activity and solving it so that’s the people I think you want on your team well but at this at the same time like what level are you hiring for right because that’s where that’s actually another good question yeah because you you point that out but one of the key words in there is experience and that’s what you’re looking for regardless right like it at certain levels like if you have somebody with zero experience but a lot of knowledge you can you can typically shape and work with that yes you can’t have the same

15:06 with that yes you can’t have the same expectations related to like hey I’m gonna paint a scenario for you am I going to ask every candidate that question of course because I want to know how you think but I will definitely be able to tell whether or not you’ve gone through that process because we have a shared experience then right there are when when you put yourself in positions where you’ve worked through problems yes you automatically know when somebody else has worked through the same problem yeah exactly right right and that’s what you’re trying to explore in in interviews that is the Nuance part

15:39 in in interviews that is the Nuance part of the conversation but it’s hard to like it’s it is it’s very hard to frame questions and get there more importantly you’re not looking for someone just for the situation that you have you’re looking for situations that will come up that you don’t know most of the things that we’re able to discern and make decisions offer are usually new models or new situations but we have that ability or we have the discernment to be able to take all the knowledge that we have and then choose basically from that repository to go what do I need to apply in this situation that’s

16:09 need to apply in this situation that’s what I would call that’s the understanding that we’re talking about here we’re talking about prior knowledge even if you haven’t seen the same problem like you may come up with a brand new problem that you’ve never seen before right the fact that you have things that were similar or had or you don’t extrapolate from yeah you can extrapolate from oh I know Dax potentially causes problems oh I know when Dax creates multiple tables and has to Union them together inside one statement that’s what causes problems so you may you may encounter something brand new but you’re using prior knowledge

16:39 knowledge while bolting that together understand how the program is actually working and now you’re able to say okay I can solve this XYZ because I understand it I’m not interested We’re Not Gonna We’re Not Gonna We’re not gonna get away from this one okay because because in this situation I would say you understand what the problem is you understand that there’s an error you understand that there are like some steps that you need to take but but many of the cases are such that it’s like well I haven’t I haven’t encountered this one before yeah my

17:10 encountered this one before yeah my experience right or my full understanding of this ecosystem allows me to think through this problem and how to solve it in different ways and that that gives me like more of the experience and the discernment and that’s where I say you can understand the components it’s the wisdom of like taking all of what’s been given to you to solve the problem right and you’re consistently building I think those levels of Call It Whatever it is like levels of of growth in environments

17:41 like levels of of growth in environments in technical Stacks in ecosystems that allow you to I think architect Solutions and problems right to figure out where the be the guy that can just like Ping Ping the machine right where it needs to

17:54 Ping the machine right where it needs to be instead of the vast majority of you be instead of the vast majority of folks that have to level up into know folks that have to level up into their that realm and just because I’ve sat in a pizza shop for 10 years doesn’t make me a master pizza maker in the same way just because you have 10 years experience it is the difference between somebody who’s who who is the side side guy or whatever they call them like where they’re on the they’re doing salads

18:25 they’re on the they’re doing salads they do 10 yards of salads they’re in a kitchen kitchen yeah yeah I thought it was but I didn’t want to use the word it’s it’s it’s 10 years of that versus like right next to him is the guy who does all the stakes and the sides and then there’s the head chef right well did did you did you learn all of the other jobs and or study under the head chef in those 10 years or did you

18:55 head chef in those 10 years or did you just make have your back to them the entire 10 years and make your salads and that is the difference right between that is absolutely the difference between a lot of folks who just work in business you have this this is all I know and that’s what you do for 10 years a thousands your 10 years of experience is still only in that area right you haven’t had the chance to get knowledge across other areas you didn’t Branch out and and that so yeah you didn’t get the knowledge in these other areas therefore you don’t have the

19:26 areas therefore you don’t have the understanding of how these like how to build reports how to build bookmarks but we don’t know how to get you from there to optimizing models cleaning things down building star schemes you’re not doing that work you’ve been only focusing your skills or your knowledge in one area so your understanding of the whole system is is insufficient it won’t let you get above that I’m usually I’ve always been more interested in those interviews less with honestly less what they know because I’m always going to find someone the same point that you guys have had I

19:58 the same point that you guys have had I I’ve sat with people going I like this I like this person they seem to know everything they’ve been in it for five years everything I’ve asked they’ve answered and then I asked them to build a report we I give them a situation come back and I was like this looks like my my son Drew it and I couldn’t believe how the model was despite the ability for this person to talk through it that’s because they understand yeah well that’s yeah it’s slightly different but like they un they knew it they had the book knowledge they didn’t have the understanding of it right and and so I am when I talk to people I am looking

20:30 am when I talk to people I am looking for someone even if they don’t have the experience and honestly and if they’re new maybe not all the knowledge yet but if I can see they’re gonna at least have the wisdom to try to understand that I can’t just learn one thing I have to apply this in different ways that’s that’s like what I’m looking for because this is less about I need you to build an application so I need you to have 10 years of python or whatever experience where this technology is going to change every two months so I need someone who has that wherewithal to basically

21:00 has that wherewithal to basically understand to learn and adapt because we’re not doing the same if they were doing four years ago yeah I think I think what I want to clarify here is like there are different there are different positions and there is no one-size-fits-all yeah you’re also not going to always get the High Caliber individual because you’re not going to want to pay for them but that’s why there’s a high caliber individual they’ve they have all of these things

21:30 these things but I think what I what we are suggesting here and this isn’t this isn’t I don’t I want to make a clarifying Point like this isn’t a conversation around like oh we’re judging people’s smartness and and think no it it there are levels of how do you put yourself in a position to elevate yourself right and and much of this comes with building your knowledge base but also the practical application of that in many different areas I think is what

22:01 many different areas I think is what sets people apart the challenge in interviewing is there are a lot of people with knowledge nowadays nowadays but the experience is either very small right so they can speak to the breadth but they haven’t done the breath and sussing that out in an interview especially as it relates to positions where you have higher expectations and I think that for me is the distinction is I’m doing an interview in both cases

22:31 I’m doing an interview in both cases I absolutely want to pick the right person person but what I’m doing is I have to make sure like in in a very short period of time ensure that I’m putting that person in a position to succeed because I am going to have very high expectations at some point in time depending on what the role is so either like well I have high expectations anyway but like the more the higher the role is the more independent you need to be and you can’t

23:01 independent you need to be and you can’t be that unless you have definitely knowledge the understanding of how to apply and you’re already broaching into this experience level where like we’re talking I can drop you into an area and you just run with it as opposed to somebody having to guide you and lead you at every step of the path to push you in directions to keep you on task yes I I agree with your statements and I want to you had mentioned a statement here a couple minutes ago that

23:31 statement here a couple minutes ago that I did want to go back to and I really liked your point that you’re emphasizing there are different roles of what you need to hire for and I think hiring managers actually have a large Miss around they don’t know what they’re hiring for no they say we need someone to do power bi so I need to do power bi and and you say well what does that mean like can you tell me like so this so a service that I offer to to our clients is like hey do you want to help hiring people have me come in and do the

24:01 hiring people have me come in and do the Techno technical interview and they’re like yeah we’d love that it sounds great okay cool let me let me what are you hiring for they’re like power bi I’m like well timeout there’s more than just you don’t just hire for power bi because to your point Seth right if you hire just for do everything about power bi you’re looking at an architect you’re looking at someone who’s got a very high pay rate they understand data engineering star modeling building reports creating data models optimizing Dax tuning performance in governance and they’re talking about

24:31 in governance and they’re talking about adoption of governments and to get someone with that level of experience like you that is a weighted question so the question really becomes what do you need them to do right what is your when you put the what’s the role are they going to come in and they’re going to just pound out reports on a Model that someone else built or they expected to modify that model or make the model from scratch so this is where I’ve been using very heavily this thing called the skills Matrix we we had one from the website right 100 Seth Seth

25:01 website right 100 Seth Seth went through and just like really elaborated and I would say a lot of our skills Matrix focused on the attacks the the report building that experience of things I think I’ve expanded in in recent months around that experience around it’s actually bigger than that right there is the release manager a power bi admin what should they know what should they be comfortable with and I I do think there is this concept of there’s a report Builder there’s a data modeler an administrator for power bi and then

25:33 administrator for power bi and then there’s this I’m I’m people may disagree with me but I think there’s this other role around a release manager and now with the addition of premium git pipelines get Integrations with workspaces themselves and now a pbip there is some more work around okay I’m not just building reports and Publishing them from desktop anymore we now are talking about a full continuous Improvement continuous development price process so there does need to be more control and I think in some situations

26:04 control and I think in some situations it makes a lot of sense to have that that continuous Improvement person because developers should focus on the dev environment and there’s someone else who we need to limit access to for security reasons or financial whatever right there’s more regulated areas in the business that you can’t see test or prod it’s just not available to you do you think there’s it like in in that Matrix though it’s strikes me do you think there’s a difference in whether or not those are qualities

26:34 whether or not those are qualities that are always needed like I don’t think so and I I would agree like I think yeah when when you’re a business unit on the front lines or they need power bi person to like start putting things together like you’re not going to be talking about git right whatever

26:50 be talking about git right whatever however if we’re talking about a like a bi developer right yeah slash data engineer whatever how you like and that’s what the part of the ecosystem yes and they need to know power bi because you’re going to be building some things there like that’s where that that startup structure comes in yeah and I’d also would agree here too right when you have a small organization you will want to pay more money for those resources because you’re going to need someone who’s going to have more skills covering more of these areas you mean and a lot

27:20 more of these areas you mean and a lot of times what I find is there is a person on the team that starts as the report Builder and data modeler they learn and they actually gain the skills that they need to become an administrator a release manager and then maybe even they start dabbling in embedded experiences but if you it depends on what you’re how you’re using power bi right if you’re just using power bitheportal. com you don’t need someone to understand embedding of reports but if you want to build something or you’re adding an application that’s going to embed those reports somewhere else well now you need

27:51 reports somewhere else well now you need someone who understands power bi what it can do and how would you embed it and what you can modify in the embedded experience to make the app and the and the report play well like it’s as if it was one item so that’s that’s where things I think get really interesting here from this perspective so anyways a lot of words to say Seth I really agreed with your comment there and I think just level setting as a hiring manager on what you expect them to do either near term or long term it helps really well

28:21 it helps really well having that lens you ask questions around those areas and then you assess right oh this this interview is interviewer is very strong on data modeling okay on report building and has no experience in the admin portal because again A lot of times that’s a very hard role to find because there’s not many people actually in the admin portal doing that that’s a very small group of people in an organization so again if you’re looking for a unicorn sometimes around walk me through all the

28:51 walk me through all the settings in the admin portal what have you what what do we set they may not know that because they’ve never seen them before they can go read the Microsoft documentation they can learn it but that will be an area where you say look I need this person to get trained or schooled or studied around information about what is the best way to release things do they have a solid strategy around deployment pipelines right that’s that release manager piece what is the organization there how do we have certified data and organ regular organizational data what does that grow up path look like you need that release manager to understand

29:22 manager to understand how that is implied implicated inside your organization I think there’s a bigger picture here too where it’s very much like I can’t teach this person or I can’t rely on this person to like ask for training where it’s like he’s got to learn if I give him something or I give her something that they maybe they’ve never seen the admin portal because they never had access to it that’s not their fault but I need to be able to trust that person if that’s something I want them to do that they are going to find out the not

29:54 are going to find out the not just the knowledge of the settings but what are the right settings to do there is there’s there’s your understanding right it’s the understanding of those things like you can know what the setting does but it’s the understanding applied to that setting that helps you say okay we really do have copper like why would someone raises well just use security groups well why would you use the security groups why what’s the point of that how do you want to control that and then as you get down further down this road you can see oh wow look at how many security groups

30:24 wow look at how many security groups we’ve created and now what I’m trying to add or move large groups of people to and from an app an audience the of the those things it becomes much easier now because instead of adding individual people you’re just adding a single group of people with this like it just makes so much more sense and I think I think that is what you try to find in interviews is people who have knowledge and have applied understanding before right yes yes in the same way and then then that can escalate into other

30:54 then then that can escalate into other areas yeah right so Tommy it’s like okay what are you looking for well I know that you’ve spent eight years making salads I I see that you’ve been studying under the state guy right the stake person like they’re do you like walk me through like your process of how you learn that and where people are like okay well that’s a good question when I make salads here’s the components of all the things I have to put together and make sure yeah in front of me the steak guy yeah it got to do the same thing albeit the ingredients are different right the largest challenge for me is with salads

31:25 largest challenge for me is with salads everything’s cold with steaks you’ve got to figure out like temperatures and this is how we do that and like so like that type of conversation even though this person is not up near the master it mistakes as they are salads they’ve showed you that they have an understanding of how to Traverse these two areas and that’s what you’re promoting here Tommy and my I want to lean in here a little bit because it’s not just interview right but all it comes out in there where you’re trying to look through those components of can

31:56 to look through those components of can people people accrue knowledge like accrue the knowledge they have and then apply it in different areas because that cycle of hey I’m interested in another area so much so right that I understand how to apply some of the same principles I’ve had or can learn something new is constant in this job constant like where your new situations new business unit brand new data sets like Fabric and I think that’s what it is a very important

32:26 think that’s what it is a very important quality quality for people that you look for an interview but for folks that want to grow their careers that it’s a perfect analogy to say hey are you branching out with your your knowledge of the different areas within power bi do how to Traverse some of these other things are you doing them on your own because those are the types of types of exercises that you flex and you you start to gain additional knowledge about

32:56 start to gain additional knowledge about how these systems and processes work and this is where like an intelligence comes in right it’s the ability to retain all this knowledge all the time but I think that’s why you hear a lot in in how we talk and communicate with people is if the way I equate intelligence is well if that’s the ability to retain knowledge what happens if you don’t if you don’t apply that knowledge you lose it so if you want to keep your your intelligence

33:27 you want to keep your your intelligence on a subject or or an area high that’s that requires consistent learning consistent engagement right that’s a necessary component of you Skilling up is you making this a part of your daily interaction to like just learn something right apply it apply something new because that is the incremental building blocks for you to gain more and more and more experience and and have like higher levels of understanding and

33:57 levels of understanding and wisdom if we’re going to apply that that to this situation as well you’re getting me fired up he’s allow me to take this a little further yeah turn up the gas turn up the heat baby but I think if if I’m talking to that Sal person and I’m talking and they’re like well and I hear something the effect of well I try to make the salad when I know the steak guy is this far into it because I know this the salad will come out like the Nuance like and it’s maybe my

34:27 the Nuance like and it’s maybe my philosophical background like why am I making this out when does it come out compared to the steak I know this is a little detailed but the idea of the context of why are they doing what they do and are they doing it the right way if I hear that from someone where even though they’ve only had this role but they’re thinking about those other questions you’re hired you’re hired or like that’s that is that the idea of they’re not just doing their role but they’re trying to understand like why are we building this data model or why who is this report for yes do we need to keep doing it this way is there a better

34:57 keep doing it this way is there a better way way there’s a there’s a lot of there’s a lot of human so we talk about the people the process and Technology a lot right right the technology does a lot of great things for us but there is a lot of human side of this and the last I think it was one of the Articles you’re getting very lost in the podcast and which which is happening in the future in the past but at some point in the next couple weeks at some point the next couple weeks there’s a podcast around talking through your team and and thinking through I lost the point anyways

35:28 through I lost the point anyways I think the point I’ll I’ll fall back on here is here is Seth you ask a question that happens very often in interviews and I think this is a great question because there’s a very human side of the people and the process side of things that you do need to hire for especially when you’re communicating to business and working

35:46 communicating to business and working with it you are that bridge gap between both in both departments and so you ask what have you learned recently and can you teach it to me right so I think we would all agree that anyone we if we can identify someone with a learning teachable heart that they want to come in if they’re hungry to get more information if they’re hungry to get to that place where they understand you that place where they understand hey I know there’s five ways of know hey I know there’s five ways of doing this I want to understand which one is the best one how could I how

36:16 one is the best one how could I how could I use that to understand how the thing works because once you understand how it works you can then implement it and I feel like that is a really good way of of kind that is a really good way of of teasing that out it doesn’t even have to be about power bi it’s just it’s just what have you learned recently did you read a book about it did you watch a video on it how did how did that process work for me talk me through that right did you did you watch something and then go do it on your desktop or build something or did you go create something so you understood what it was doing that to me

36:47 that to me I’m I’m listening not only for what you did learning how long ago that was but I’m also listening for what were their communication skills can I can can they do something that I know nothing about and can I understand what they’re trying to accomplish can I relate to it and if they can convey that that message this is the whole thing around communication and I get no boy this is this is getting a lot bigger than I thought than I thought it initially was you’re only talking about the same way we use words to communicate

37:17 the same way we use words to communicate to each other there’s a common understanding of the words we’re doing the same thing with the visuals the visuals are also communicating sure and I was watching a TED Talk where they were talking about well when I’m talking to you my brain wavelengths are doing a certain pattern as I’m communicating to you I’m trying to get your brain to wavelength the same way mine is that is that is the conveying of information we’re doing the same thing with the data tables we’re doing the same thing with the visuals we’re trying to convey a

37:48 the visuals we’re trying to convey a story a message a an answer some you story a message a an answer some deeper meaning with that visual but know deeper meaning with that visual but it is it is that deeper meaning is being communicated through the report so we want good communicators I’ll tell you what I would hate to see our data patterns or our brain wavelengths together they’re all over the place if you were to see our data thing it would break the machine I think there’s only like one little part of my brain just actually ever running everything else is just idle all the time I think oh man the one point I’m gonna lean into

38:18 the one point I’m gonna lean into I I I read I read some comments that irked me on LinkedIn related to data folks in general I think overs not data folks let’s bring this back all of us have a propensity to oversimplify and generalize other areas of experience and expertise sure if we don’t if we’ve never spent any time there one of the areas I think this happens a lot is in

38:48 areas I think this happens a lot is in data versus visualization or UI ux and there are like there are wealth there’s a wealth of knowledge out there that you can tap into that would bring your insights about how people ingest data visually that would 100 make you spend more time in the visualization area to quote unquote make things look good and there’s a lot of negativity I think

39:19 and there’s a lot of negativity I think sometimes around folks poo pooing others around saying like hey there there are there’s absolutely a place and a time to make the report look good with these certain characteristics of Designing intentionally so that the data which is the most important is a very important component you’re trying to convey and communicate yes right something so it is like that’s the backbone but at the same point it’s it’s very much akin to your example just now of our

39:50 to your example just now of our wavelengths of how to talk to each other right can can I say something very important important but yell at you yes is that gonna work all the time happens all the time right the same way is it totally resonates yeah yeah I can relate to that one Seth oh more than I want to okay it’s part part of the visual experience is just the death phase

40:21 yeah right maybe I shouldn’t have started with that one maybe you should have led with a different point versus calm right yes correct in an even measured tone like what is going to be received better yes is it is it me screaming at you or is it like this so and I think that’s how I equate like some of this where it’s like can I can I Brute Force throw just data at you yeah can you digest it yeah but it’s not nearly going to be as easy if it’s not toned over right

40:53 easy if it’s not toned over right there is you gave my secret sauce away like or at least one of my favorite questions out of my interviews I do sorry dude shout out to Jess Borland who now works at Microsoft she was an old colleague of mine dear like loved working with her that was her favorite question oh nice teach me something yes to your point I think is a completely different level of skill right and let’s let’s not like I think there is a a significant difference in my mind between between like I said depending on role and position but it’s about communication

41:24 position but it’s about communication can you articulate the thoughts behind what you’re asking or yes can you comprehensively take something and sometimes it hey what the the answer is did that there’s a stack function and it allows you to do this and this and this and like very technical versus hey we’re going to talk about models or we’re going to talk about even we’re going to talk about azure wow that’s a big topic to cover in three minutes but go for it right yeah but it it’s can you can you communicate well right I think that’s what you’re

41:54 well right I think that’s what you’re aiming for but yes it’s super important in our job super important can you convey to the business what they need to understand without using calculated columns and measures yes yes even more now in the third era of analytics now where honestly think about too what you’re going to hear in interviews or what people are expected to know in this called the age of fabric I think this is a very interesting place that we’re going where all the

42:25 place that we’re going where all the technology and the builds up there what do you like what are we expecting from people like what am I expecting from people in different roles what am I expecting to hear from an interview because we’re going to hear too like in two months someone has two years of experience in Fabric and you’re gonna go literally years of experience yeah yeah and then realistically if you’re using data bricks if you’re using pipelines and like right yeah if if you tell me you have three years of synapse experience that I’m now translating into fabric then I’ll

42:56 translating into fabric then I’ll believe you but if you tell me you’ve got two years of fabric experience I’m gonna say no no but where did you get that fabric experience from can you tell me give me some references there that’s important to clarify well I’ve been sewing for 20 years yeah exactly exactly two Fabrics also just a broad thing where it could be power bi it could be just the data flows or it could be the synapse in the data Factory it just muddies it and I don’t think we’re expecting I’m not expecting someone to

43:26 expecting I’m not expecting someone to be a master of each product and fabric I think that’s way ridiculous to even expect you’re the administrator you’re the report Builder you’re the data engineer that notebooks as well as the Dax like is that what you should expect from each person I think that would be I I believe I believe the person if you looked for that person sure you’re looking for a more rare and rare and rare person and even in my team I’ve delineated individuals against hey

43:56 delineated individuals against hey you’re really good at notebooks and you’re really good at software development code right right like that’s a learned skill that has taken many years of time there are team members on my team that do that really really well there are also team members on my team that do visualizations really really well and to find someone who understands all of that and and that’s been a lot of what I’ve been doing it’s trying to invest what I know in my mind about all these different types of tools how to bring them all together and there’s been a lot of education on my team to make sure every person on my team knows as

44:26 sure every person on my team knows as much as I can give them around all these different tools so now when you again now you have that that team member that can pull all the things together and this is when I want to go back to just really briefly here is what when you answer what level are you hiring for this matters now because the idea is you

44:44 this matters now because the idea is you need to identify what they’re strong at and where do they need help knowing that you’re going to have to teach them so like the idea is like if I’m a hiring manager I’m going to drop someone in right away as a power bi admin I better make sure they’ve either had experience doing it they align with my methodologies or thinking around what administration is going to be doing because I don’t want to let someone in there go wild with and they’re making decisions on very important things that we wouldn’t agree with as an organization so there there is this idea of okay I you have minimal knowledge in

45:16 of okay I you have minimal knowledge in this area but I just want to make sure you can learn it because we’re going to get you some formal training or I the manager will have to slow down increase your knowledge in this area so that way you’re thinking on the same wavelength that I am when we talk about Administration and that only comes with so a lot of times I feel people are like well I don’t want to stop I can’t it’s just easier if I just do it I get it I understand it is it would be faster if you just do it because you already know all the things but you don’t scale yourself well you can’t like

45:46 don’t scale yourself well you can’t like in anything you can’t scale yourself unless you slow down teach somebody else that thing and then they can do the same level of quality around building managing whatever that thing is later on so I think that’s just a really good point that you made there Tommy yeah and honestly I want to touch on one last part there too that as we get near the closer to the end the scale in yourself is big and I think that was a mistake that I made too weird I was so like I don’t know everything and got to be that person where the next thing

46:16 person where the next thing you’re like you want people to rely on you but at the same point like that’s we talked about this actually I think you said this a while ago too that’s that’s not a great skill and if anything that’s almost to your detriment with you’re like you’re the only person who knows this even though like maybe that’s your personality like I think for all three of us you give us a topic and actually we’re gonna soak it in we’re going to find everything about oh yeah yeah totally that’s half of the story man like if you can’t teach it if you don’t teach it and if you can’t scale that in

46:48 teach it and if you can’t scale that in an organization or to others well how good is it really well man you’re hitting on another topic I I think this is one of the reasons why I really so there’s a lot of communities of people out there doing great things there’s a lot of people that are doing in very fun to be engaged with I will say for me personally I have really liked the Excel Community the data Community power bi Community the people in that area seem to have some maybe this is maybe this is what you’re talking about earlier Seth right the data Community needs to understand how

47:18 data Community needs to understand how to talk to somebody learn hear what they’re saying and build reports or visuals or things on top of it so maybe there’s a higher emphasis on people refining or working on that communication skills level or or you communication skills level or or let me bring you along for the know let me bring you along for the journey like here I’ve learned something you should learn it too there’s this concept I think that maybe there’s there’s maybe an emphasis on that skill inside the data community and that’s why I like I’m that’s why I’m drawn to it I’m so energized and partly

47:49 drawn to it I’m so energized and partly also I’m an extrovert right so I love being around people in general but in addition to that I really like our community I really like the way that people are regularly sharing things they’re putting things on YouTube and social medias I’m learning from them they’re learning from me and this is really encouraging to me and I really like that layer of or that lens of how this community is running so my my we’re getting closer to wrapping up but as we think about the data Community I’ve really enjoyed it I’ve met a lot of wonderful people all over the world who are very

48:19 people all over the world who are very easy and willing to spend a little bit of time here there helping me learn something or answering a question I have or helping me tease out these different ideas this is one of our main points around the explicit measures podcast Tommy has said it before this is like my therapy session for the week right it’s it’s without it’s going to be rough for Tommy this next couple weeks we because we’re going this is the recording episode so we’re we’re at the end of it so actually Tommy may come back a bit of a different person when we come back to from all the recordings we’ll see what happens

48:50 the recordings we’ll see what happens there’s we’re gonna have a really deep there yeah it’s gonna have to be a deep tissue massage to get the therapy out for for this next episode from across the ocean exactly so I do I do agree I think there’s there’s definitely it’s and it’s also harder when you find yourself on an island where there’s not people like this around you that you can invest in and they’re investing in you and I think this is it’s been nice to see the community that we can we can plug into the internet which can provide any level of community things that you need to some degree

49:21 things that you need to some degree it’s not it’s not the same as in person all the time anyways sorry I got like really reflective there for a moment well I think that it’s going to be a few weeks until we talk again maybe yeah maybe I’m I’m morning here a bit there’s a little bit of mourning that’s occurring here that there’s going to be a couple weeks of not seeing Seth and or Tommy Tommy what am I gonna do what am I gonna do for for two weeks here while we’re got one more episode live next week that’s true this is really weird because this is like I’m talking about the future but this is actually in the future side I’ll

49:51 this is actually in the future side I’ll stop this is just really this is very existential philosophical conversation about knowledge understanding and wisdom it’s like it’s not like we’re Time Travelers we’re we’re literally doing time traveling I can’t wait to see you on Tuesday excellent well any final thoughts gentlemen on this one any interesting word topic at the beginning the title may not be representative of this hiring piece that we’ve been talking about more recently but I think those words are a good lead into thinking about

50:22 good lead into thinking about do I know things or do I understand them as it relates to people skills hiring considerations as a manager any other final thoughts you wrap this with with I think I’m covered a lot well I’m just going to step in no Seth go Seth instead we we covered a breadth of experience of areas right some of that interviewing some of where you where people are at right now and and the value behind it and I think if there’s a theme throughout all of it leveling up scaling up increasing

50:53 leveling up scaling up increasing your knowledge or understanding wisdom Etc requires consistent engagement whether that be learning application or to some degree listening to us on the explicit pocket like this is the value we get out of it because not not to agree I’m not sure we’re really that great it’s it’s the conversation and and the thought juice right like thinking about all of the different areas that we talk about technically or in the business intelligence

51:23 in the business intelligence areas that keep you engaged keep you thinking about things and and that’s exactly what you should be doing in your technical spaces as well yeah because ultimately hey man you get one ride right so make the most of it and for all of your times that we spend doing other things spending 15 minutes a day what do they say like that if you practice something yep for 15 minutes a day like there’s some exponential curve that you there’s some exponential curve that puts you in a different playing know puts you in a different playing field it’s not hard to do like it’s just consistency so that’s that’s my final

51:54 consistency so that’s that’s my final thought mine is simple how much better to get wisdom and gold to get insight rather than silver oh yes little all right profound nice I like it with that we thank you very much for your ears we know your time is valuable we hope some of the we added some value to your hour here through talking through things and arguing about stuff and and thinking through other Concepts here so hopefully this helped a little bit yeah exactly hopefully this helped a little bit throughout your day we appreciate your your your time we

52:25 we appreciate your your your time we know it’s valuable our only ask is if you support us by either subscribing or liking it it helps us push us out to other people also the best thing is let somebody else know that you are loving the podcast there’s a couple things here that you a couple nuggets you took away someone else may need to hear this or think about these things again it’s not this is not the answer this is just purely a way of teasing out thoughts and thinking through things additionally Tommy where else can you find the podcast well you can continue to find us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast make sure to subscribe

52:55 your podcast make sure to subscribe leave us rating it helps us out a ton if you have a question an idea or topic that you want us to talk about on a future episode head over to powerbai. tips slash podcast leave us a mailbag question maybe it’s about wisdom understanding or knowledge and finally join us live every Tuesday and Thursday 7 30 a. m at the power bi tips social media channels awesome thank you all very much and we’ll see you next time

53:37 thank you [Music]

Thank You

Want to catch us live? Join every Tuesday and Thursday at 7:30 AM Central on YouTube and LinkedIn.

Got a question? Head to powerbi.tips/empodcast and submit your topic ideas.

Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.